DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 96119

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" <carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
> But who would you see Dumbledore re-incarnated as in this scenario ? 
> It would appear he can't come back as himself exactly, some other 
> person has to appear (with Godric or Slytherin, or Merlin etc as 
> previous holders of the post perhaps). And does he start again as a 
> baby or does he rebirth as an adult ?  It was this problem which made 
> me think of Harry as his nominated successor, and would explain his 
> ruthless protection, and odd love for the boy, whom he must die for 
> at some point.
> 
Kneasy:
Hmm. It all depends how the Stone (or the potion derived  from it) works.
Additionally would DD relish being known as a centuries-old Dark
Wizard exterminator? Why not do the business, retire, disappear from
view only to reappear as a rejuvenated person, not necessarily using
the same name? The only people who would know would be the Flamels.
Of course, this would mean that he is Gryffindor - interesting.
IMO Harry would be a poor successor - much too young; give him
another 50 years or so and I'd go along with it.

Carolyn:
> OTO, I could definitely buy the theory that Tom Riddle took over the 
> evil mantle from Grindewald - the dates all fit, and I agree that 
> this would suggest a possession-method of re-incarnation, as Tom was 
> aged 19 in 1945. So could Harry get to possess Dumbledore in the same 
> way when the time comes?
>
Kneasy:
Heh, heh, heh. That'd frighten the horses, Harry possessing DD, but the 
other way round - DD possessing Harry, that might work.

Carolyn: 
> And why would Riddle's possession have to take place in the Chamber? 
> Might have misunderstood you here, but surely Tom could just have got 
> in there and learnt all about it at the feet of the master, Salazar, 
> whilst he was in his 5th year, and then made sure he was in the right 
> place at the right time in Germany (if Grindewald was currently 
> possessing Hitler at that point, as many have suggested). There is 
> certainly an uncomfortable similarity between Voldemort's ravings 
> about the virtues of pure-bloods when he isn't one himself, and 
> Hitler's own background.
>
> As to how Dumbledore got to Germany to fight Grindewald- well, 
> apparating covers it doesn't it ? It seems almost instantaneous and 
> possible over that distance ? Old Dippet doesn't seem the sort to 
> make a big fuss over one of his teachers being away at short notice 
> and coming back a bit battered. Perhaps he could cover by teaching 
> transfiguration himself if necessary ? 


Kneasy:
I think people are taking this Hitler/Nazi/WWII thing a bit too far.
Yes, JKR has intimated that that's one of the templates for Voldy
and the DEs, but it doesn't *necessarily* mean that the Grindelwald
affair happened in Germany. World-wide unrest, evil on the march,
an opportune time for baddies everywhere to stir the pot.

I look at it this way - Tom becomes Voldemort, very definitely not
an English name. OK, if Grindelwald (again not an English name)
appeared in the same way, who was he before he became Grindelwald?
I see the names as nom-de-guerres, not original identities.
 
The 50 year *coincidence* is intriguing, and the fact that DD was
definitely teaching at the school with no clue or hint that he was
involved elsewhere just  adds to it.

We're told that the school  has been searched many times through
the centuries to try and find the Chamber. Why? Try a couple of
times, then consign it to legend, would be the usual response,
unless there was reason to keep on looking. Now it's been found,
possibly this time round there'll be a cleansing. 

Not possible to be more  than speculative until more is revealed,
but I do like challenging accepted thinking.

> 
> Carolyn again:
> I don't think he is going to be tempted in the sense you describe - 
> ie just to get the hell out of this nutcase situation. He is still 
> fuelled by a burning anger about avenging his parents, increased now 
> by added grief about Sirius. He has had a nasty shock to his trust in 
> Dumbledore, and is more likely to hatch some scheme of his own to 
> find out the truth on some pressing questions -
> 
> Lupin and Tonks are the most likely people he would confide in over 
> the summer, other than Ron and Hermione. 
> Lupin may be equally consumed with grief about 
> Sirius (or he may have murdered him), and in any event has a poor 
> history of being honest with Dumbledore. He may be ESE!, as many have 
> speculated; he may be equally interested in finding out about 
> Godric's Hollow for a whole variety of other reasons, which I know 
> you will be able to invent without difficulty (!).
> 
> Whatever, Harry's escapade will inevitably end with another dangerous 
> confrontation with Voldie and more tears before bedtime. Perhaps this 
> is the point where Dumbledore reveals to Harry the re-incarnation 
> aspect of his destiny, and promptly dies in the shoot-out, leaving 
> our hero to literally pick up the pieces ?
> 
Kneasy:
Invent!? Wash your mouth out! It's 'considered hypotheses derived from
incomplete evidence', thank you very much. Or maybe bloody-minded
perverseness.

Yes, Harry does want to know more of the history behind the plot, so
do we, but judging from the end of OoP what he wants most is out.
This is where I forecast temptation - kindly words purporting to show
him a way to avoid all this unpleasantness - and it will just get him
into even more of a fix. Harry won't get that from a member of the 
Order (unless there's another double), nor Ron, nor Hermione; both
are members of the DD fan club, but he might from someone like Luna,
as I posted a few days ago.
> 
> Carolyn now:
> My original point was that there could not be a final defeat of evil, 
> because that is not credible - evil will always exist to be fought by 
> the forces of good, because the two forces are facts of human nature. 
> Harry will undoubtedly be victorious, but probably it will be a 
> pyrhhic victory in many respects.
> 
> However, because of the views held by Voldie and his DE's, one 
> outcome of the final showdown might be a change in the way the WW 
> views muggles (and other species which they look down on).  'Muggle-
> loving disgraces' like Arthur will gradually be able to introduce new 
> laws about these relationships as a result.
> 

Kneasy:
I agree that evil will never be finally wiped out, but this aspect of it might.

WW and Muggles.
An heretical thought.
JKR doesn't believe in magic, she's told us so. What if magic disappears 
from the world and they all become Muggles?
Maybe that's why she won't discuss sequels; there's no more magic.