Ancient Magic sacrifice, blood-protection and such (very long)

[Arya]

No: HPFGUIDX 96270

> Lilian:
> > PoA pg. 311: `This is magic at its deepest, its most  impenetrabl..'
> > There are three types of ancient magic that we know of in the 
> books  so far:
> > 
> > 1)	Sacrifice;
> > 2)	Blood-protection;
> > 3)	Life debt.
> > 
> > As these have been discussed a lot lately, but always separate 
> from  each other, I decided to compare them. In doing so I noticed that 
> > these types of ancient magic have a similar trait. DD gives us in 
> > OotP (pg. 737) an important clue with regard to this:
> > 
> > `I thought,' said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, `that  she might 
need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you'  So Petunia sealed 
a pact. If we look at all the three forms of ancient magic, can these all be 
considered as pacts? Let's see.
> 
> 
> Jen: Very interesting post, Liliana! We have so little to go on with 
> ancient magic, and it's one of the most compelling parts of the 
> story. I used to think the Goblet of Fire and its 'binding magical 
> contract' was ancient magic as well, but I'm rethinking that. It 
> seems that *consenting* to the pact is a very important part of the 
> process, and Harry is chosen and must compete without true consent.
> 
> Liliana:
> > Next, based on that [sacrifice]pact, LV had to spare Harry. But LV 
> broke the pact immediately after it was sealed. LV broke the `laws of magic' 
> > involved with the pact. Not the written laws of magic, the legal system, but 
the unwritten laws of magic.  
> 
> Jen: This 'unwritten law of magic' seems to be a higher imperative 
> and, I believe, synonymous with ancient magic. It is what Dumbledore 
> ascribes to in his own affairs, and is outside the bounds of human 
> Ministry laws. We see many everyday spells that consist of one 
> person casting a spell directed at an object or a person, and we see 
> a specific result (or not). But then we're presented with a few, a 
> very few, examples of magic that create a *bond* between two people. 
> It's a much deeper form of magic than two people casting spells at 
> each other. 
------
Arya:
This all reminds of 'what comes around, goes around' or a sense of 'balance' 
between magic.  I've also heard this as the Law of threefold return wherein 
what good or evil one does is returned to him or her threefold.  Yin and 
Yang...take your pick but it all speaks to a very elemental sense of balance 
among those who practice magic and the magic they use.  
---------

>Jen: I've argued before that the Fidelius is ancient magic for this 
> reason, but that's never stated, so I can't prove it :). We also 
> have examples of Dark Magic that create a bond between people, but 
> it isn't a consensual. Stated examples are the Diary and LV's 
> rebirthing potion--both involved people who didn't consent to the 
> pact. 
> 
> In the examples of ancient magic, all the bonds are consensual--
> Wormtail begs for mercy and accepts Harry's intervention, thus the 
> debt is created--he could have chosen to die instead; Lily begs for 
> LV to take her instead of Harry and accepts being killed, thus the 
> charm is cast--she could have chosen to let LV have Harry (I know, I 
> know, that's entirely unlikely, but it *is* a choice she has); 
> Petunia is asked to accept Dumbledore's request to keep Harry,and 
> consents--thus sealing the charm. (There is dissension whether 
> Petunia is doing this of free-will or force by DD, but I tend to 
> believe in her heart-of-hearts, it's her choice. I don't think the 
> blood protection would work if she didn't freely choose this on 
> *some* level.
> 
> Liliana:
> > Can pacts be transferred to third parties?
> > The information that we have with regard to this question is 
> > limited. If we presume that blood is an identifying factor in 
> these 
> > types of ancient magic, than all that can be said is that if Harry 
> > owns a life debt to someone, LV now owns that life debt too. As he 
> > shares the same blood as Harry, he will be identified as a party. 
> > In the case of blood-protection, this is not a transferral of the 
> > pact of sacrifice bu an entirely new pact. Although the pact is 
> made 
> > possible because of the blood connection between Lily, Petunia and 
> > Harry. 
> 
> Jen: I don't have much to add here, but JKR did address this briefly 
> in the World Book Day chat:
> 
> MauraEllen: "Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over to 
> Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?"
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> "No. Can't say any more than that!" 
> 
> So, not much information, but we can be assured that particular debt 
> wasn't transferred. I think it has to do with no 'informed consent' 
> on LV's part in that situation. It can't be transferred to LV if he 
> doesn't know what's coming his way.
--------

Arya:
On these pacts being consensual, what about James rescuing Snape?  
That's one example of a Life Debt we've seen.  Do you think Snape 
consented to being saved then?  I know one might say, hell yes because it 
was that or become a Remus Snack but then again I wouldn't put it 
completely out of the realm of possibility that he'd rather die than refuse aid 
from James Potter.  Perhaps all that was needed was James consenting to 
help (or merely reacting).  But what I'm getting at here is that I wonder about 
the necessity of consent and whose consent is needed most especially when 
the one being saved is in such peril that they are not aware they are being 
saved.  Ginny in the CoS for example.  Does she owe Harry a Life Debt?  He 
certainly saved her life and headded into the Chamber with the intent to save 
her but she was quite unconscious at the time and completely unaware.  
Dumbledore came to aid Harry 'just in time' to fend off Quirrelmort but Harry 
wasn't aware of this until later told.  

My question, I guess, is who needs to do the consenting?  Sacrafices, would 
only need the consent of the one doing the sacrifice (Lily, Wormtail chopping 
his hand off).  Blood-magic, I'm totally unsure about but it seems that 
somehow blood is a conduit or conductor of magic in some form.  Life-Debts 
though?  We only have two of these pointed out to us in canon: Snape to 
James which seems to have been passed along to Harry and Wormtail's to 
Harry.  Wormtail's is the most well-defined one because we know all about it 
and we know Wormtail begged to be saved.  Snape's to James is never 
termed a Life-Debt but Dumbledore merely says, "Professor Snape couldn't 
bear being in your father's debt..." and that he only worked to save Harry's 
life to be able to make him and James even so he could hate his memory in 
peace.  

So I guess I've only confused myself even more now.  Either way, I think the 
sacrafices and life-debts are all a type of karma factors and no matter what, 
Volde's suffering through 12 years of being a Snake parasite at best is only 
the beginning of his bad karma that he's due.

Arya