SHIP: Need opinions? That's easy!

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 97197

Jim Ferer wrote:
> I see Harry and Hermione converging all the time. They've
> changed each other and are more complete together than apart.
>  
> Never have two people been more suited to each other, perfect
> soulmates. Hermione has been the person who has prepared him for 
> his challenges; while he is the greatest natural talent of his 
> generation, she is the exemplar of what hard work and application 
> can do - a perfect yin and yang. She understands him better than 
> anyone else.

Del replies :
Just for the fun, let me counter your ideas a bit :-)

"I see Harry and Hermione converging all the time."

Harry and Ginny are converging too. And Hermione and Ron might be 
converging too through their arguments. And Hermione and Viktor must 
be converging too, or they would have stopped writing to each other 
by now.

"They've changed each other and are more complete together than 
apart."

The same could be said of Ron and Hermione of course. Moreover, 
pretty much anyone is more complete with someone else than alone. 
And friends often change each other after a while, without it 
meaning anything romantically.
 
"Never have two people been more suited to each other, perfect 
soulmates."

Ah ? I don't see that. The way Harry doesn't care much about 
Hermione's personal life doesn't strike me as a characteristic of a 
soul mate. He doesn't care about her relationship with anyone else, 
whether boy or girl (he dismisses the problem she has with Lavender 
at the beginning of OoP because he's so engrossed in his own problem 
with Seamus, he doesn't show any interest in her friendship with 
Viktor, etc...), he doesn't care about her ambitions in life, he 
doesn't know anything about her non-Harry activities, etc...

"Hermione has been the person who has prepared him for his 
challenges;"

Oh, she's a good trainer all right :-) Whether Harry would want/need 
that in his mate is another matter.

"while he is the greatest natural talent of his generation, she is 
the exemplar of what hard work and application can do - a perfect 
yin and yang."

Hmm, I don't share your view of Harry and Hermione I'm afraid. Harry 
is talented all right, but to go as far as saying that he's the 
greatest natural talent of his generation, I don't think so. In 
Quidditch maybe, but that's all. In fact, it would seem that in many 
things Hermione is at least as talented as Harry. We've seen her 
master spells very quickly (Wingardium Leviosa) which seems to point 
to great magical talent. As Hagrid put it (paraphrase) : "there 
isn't a spell our Hermione cannot learn". May I remind you that when 
training Harry, Hermione often *self-teaches* herself the spells 
first, and then teaches them to Harry ? Just because Harry is the 
one teaching her in OoP doesn't mean we can dismiss all she did 
previously or does otherwise (Protean Charm, sneak jinx, etc...). If 
anyone would be the greatest natural magical talent of their 
generation, it would be Hermione, not Harry.
Moreover, I disagree with the way you oppose natural talent and hard 
work. Both Harry and Hermione are talented, but they also both need 
to work hard to master something. It took ages for Harry to master 
the Patronus Charm (and yes I know it was advanced magic, but 
Hermione learned the Protean Charm -NEWT level- on her own in her 
5th year, which impressed a Ravenclaw of all people if I'm not 
mistaken) or even something more basic like Accio. He had to put a 
lot of hard work in it.
So I don't see Harry and Hermione as any kind of yin and yang. I 
rather see Hermione as what Harry could become if he tried to. He's 
always amazed at what she can do, but he never seems to realize he 
could do just the same if only he tried.

"She understands him better than anyone else."

So much so that at the end of OoP, Ron has to hush her all the time 
because she wants to talk about Sirius when it seems obvious Harry 
doesn't want to.

Jim Ferer wrote:
> Hermione cares for him as much or more than anyone. When she asks
> after Harry and Cho, what's going on there? Is she not interested 
> in Harry, or not aware of *how* she might care for him, or is she 
> mature enough to know his feelings for Cho have to be resolved, 
> that the risk must be run?

Del answers :
She seems awfully disinterested. She keeps on writing her letter to 
Viktor, undisturbed. And the way she asks if they kissed sounds 
horribly scientific to me : did the 2 rats sniff each other ? Ron, 
on the other hand, reacts violently to any imaginary hint that 
Hermione might have a thing going with Harry or Viktor.

Jim Ferer wrote:
> I don't know, but I know that Harry and Hermione love each other 
> already. It may not be romantic love, but they are incredibly 
> close. Hermione with anybody else - even Ron - would be a step 
> backward in intimacy.

Del replies :
First we don't know that Hermione isn't just as intimate with 
somebody else. She might be writing heart-to-heart with Viktor, or 
having intimate talks with Ron when they are just the two of them. 
We don't know.
Second, intimacy isn't everything. I've been intimate in feelings 
with a pair of boys (not at the same time), but we never ended up 
together, which was good because I don't think, in retrospective, 
that it would have worked well.

Jim Ferer wrote:
> Hermione knows exactly what Harry needs.

Del counters :
If she did, she wouldn't have kept sending letters to Harry during 
the summer that said "Ron and I are together doing cool stuff, and 
we're so sorry you're not there". She knows how to keep things 
secret when she wants to, she could have kept that secret too.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> Her DA idea was brilliant, giving him a purpose and a boost he 
> badly needed at the same time providing others with something they 
> needed as well.
(snip)
> You will answer that any friend might do that for him, but I
> offer it up as an example of how in tune Hermione is to Harry.

Del replies :
I can't pinpoint it, but I get the feeling that she tries and does 
the same thing for Ron, and Neville too. Hermione is the type who 
wants to do things for those she cares for. She cares about Harry, 
Ron and Neville, so she does her best to help them. But since the 
story is told from Harry's POV, and Harry happens to be the one who 
most needs help most of the time, it seems like she does more for 
Harry than for others.
Oh, and let's not forget SPEW, of course :-) It's the same thing : 
she cares about the house-elves, so she wants to "help" them.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> Harry has noticed her, and the subtlety of the clues make them more
> convincing. In OOP, when she suggests he tell Cho how ugly he 
> thinks Hermione is, he says 'but I don't think you're ugly!' which 
> was a spontaneous letting out of his feelings.

Del replies :
So much honesty and spontaneity could actually be seen as a proof 
that Harry does *not* fancy Hermione. There's a tendency among some 
youths (both boys and girls) to *not* state nice things about those 
they fancy, precisely because it could be seen as a sign of 
interest. So it doesn't mean much that Harry admits to not finding 
Hermione ugly. Moreover, not finding someone ugly isn't the same as 
finding them beautiful or cute. And the fact that he doesn't blush 
once he realizes what he's said only makes things worse in my idea : 
if he *had* let out his feelings inadvertently, he would be most 
embarrassed about it.
I personally think Harry is simply completely bewildered by 
Hermione's suggestion that he lies to Cho, so he refutes Hermione's 
statement. It's just the same as saying "but you don't wear a wig !" 
if Hermione had said that Cho is jealous of her hair so Harry should 
say Hermione wears a wig. 

Jim Ferer wrote :
> In GoF, there were true sparks when he noticed her at the Yule 
> Ball.

Del wonders :
Huh ? What sparks ? Harry found her pretty at that time, all right, 
but so did *everybody else* ! Remember those looks on Draco and 
Pansy's faces ? On Viktor's fan club members' faces ? *Everyone* was 
amazed at how beautiful Hermione had made herself to be.
If anyone was emitting sparks that night, it was Ron. And it was 
more like fireworks, too :-) ! I mean, his behaviour at the Yule 
Ball *is* telling of his jealousy : in any other case, he would have 
been the first one to throw Hermione into Viktor's arms, just to 
have an opportunity to get closer to his idol. Just like he'd love 
to throw his little sister in his best friend's arms : to keep the 
good things at arm's length.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> These seeds are not idly planted. They will burst out someday. 
> (BTW, when JKR repeats something, remember it).

Del is lost :
What seeds ? And what did JKR say twice ?
There might be seeds between Harry and Hermione, but there is a 
whole tree already burgeoning on Ron's side.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> I suspect Cho, and others, see how close Harry and Hermione are 
> better than the principals themselves.

Del replies :
I think Cho and Viktor's jealous behaviours are more an example of 
how infatuated people can become overly jealous of their loved ones' 
friends, and how this isn't a good thing.
And take a look at Harry's reaction to Viktor's questions : he finds 
the idea that he and Hermione might be a pair absurd. He's not even 
pleased to pose as Great Viktor Krum's Rival, nor does it trigger 
any emotional feeling in him towards Hermione.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> Harry's 'saved' Hermione, too. I don't mean physically, although he
> has, but Hermione knew early that she would be a different person 
> and a lesser one without being in the Trio. She started out with an
> affinity to Percy, but look at how the two have diverged. Because 
> of her adventures, because she's discovered real purpose, she's a 
> young woman of character and moral courage and Percy's a disgusting
> sycophant. She might have been a Ravenclaw at heart when she 
> arrived, but there never was a truer Gryffindor now. She's seen 
> what bravery can do. Hermione has gained immensely from knowing 
> Harry.

Del replies :
I don't quite agree with some things you said (like the part about 
Hermione being a 'lesser person' without the Trio, or Percy being 'a 
disgusting sycophant'), but I understand what you mean. However, 
this doesn't make any point in regard to H/H. It just shows that 
they have both gained a lot from their friendship. Well, that's 
hardly unexpected, is it ? But it doesn't mean in any way that they 
should/will get together romantically. 

(huge snip)

Jim Ferer wrote :
> WHAT DOES HARRY NEED?
> 
> If Harry ends up with Ginny, he's going to have a supportive, 
> loving woman and family, a healing balm for all the hurts he's got 
> and will get. If it's Hermione, she's going to care for him in a 
> different way, pushing him when he needs it, tough when she has to 
> be, challenging him back to health. Which will he need?  He's 
> going to need something, because he's going to pay a high price 
> for defying Voldemort, as all the Dark Lord's enemies have.

Del replies :
Well, everyone needs something, Dark Lord or not. And we don't 
always go for what we need. Harry most definitely didn't need Cho, 
and still that's who he was after for 2 years ! So there's no saying 
he will go for the one who can best give him what he needs.

Jim Ferer wrote :
> If anyone wants to argue an R/H viewpoint based on the idea 
> that "JKR says so," that's weak, IMO. JKR doesn't want us to do 
> that. She wants us to find it in her text. She keeps telling us 
> everything is there, and it is, but you won't find it in how the 
> pillows fall or anything like that.

Del replies !
Hum, you're in the wrong camp to say that, I'm afraid ;-) It's the 
R/H shippers who have the books going for them. Ron is *obviously* 
smitten with Hermione, and Hermione hasn't shown any romantic 
interest in either boys, while Harry has been after Cho. That's one 
point for R/H, and none for H/H.

Personally, I'm starting to hope Hermione will end up with Viktor, 
as he's the only one who's ever shown *real* respect for her 
brains : after all, he chose her in the library, her favourite 
place, and the place the boys try to keep her out of.
And if any couple was ever "yin and yang", it's those two :-)

Del