What's in it for Snape? Finding motive...

[severelysigune]

No: HPFGUIDX 97198

vmonte wrote:
<< What motivates Snape?  Is he really working for the Order,  
Voldemort, or himself? Is he good, bad, or neither? 
I have a bad feeling about Snape -- I just can't help it.  He had a 
miserable childhood, was picked on in school, yet, instead of 
learning how not to be, he grows up to become a teacher who bullies 
his students.  (Harry also had a miserable childhood, and was bullied 
by Dudley; yet, he is able to feel compassion for others.) 
 
Harry is capable of having friends, yet, Snape cannot.
 
I still feel that Harry's occulmency lessons with Snape were really 
DD's way of letting Harry learn more about "Snape the person." 
I feel that Snape really reveals his himself during these lessons. 
("The Art of War," post # 94893 and 95076.) 
 
You learn that Snape was an unhappy child, and that he was a victim 
of James's gang -- repeatedly.  You also hear Snape tell Harry: 
"Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot 
control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow 
themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people in other words - 
they stand no chance against his powers!  He will penetrate your mind 
with absurd ease, Potter!" (OOTP)
 
It seems to me that Snape is the one who wallows in his sad memories -
 why else would he remove them from his mind before teaching Harry? 
And did he have control over his emotions when he realized that Harry 
saw them? I think that the: "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on 
their sleeves" quote, is what happened to Snape. I think that 
Voldemort, realized what Snape's weaknesses were, and used them 
against him. He lured Snape into being a DE. >>

Sigune:
This is really a very interesting point - I had never considered it. 
BTW, I liked the theory in an earlier post (I am really sorry, I 
forgot by whom) that Voldemort taught Snape occlumency so as to allow 
him to clear his mind and put his mental faculties to their fullest 
use. I don't believe it was Voldy who did so, but it is interesting 
to see in Snape such an odd mixture of complete detachment and 
dissimulation on the one hand, and violent upsurges of temper on the 
other when he is confronted with his old enemies. I rather like the 
idea of Snape learning occlumency to keep his temper under control - 
though this is probably more Byronic than Rowlingian (?).

Then again, if Snape is talking about himself in the quote above, why 
would he do so? It seems like admitting a personal weakness, and that 
seems (so far) slightly out of character (to me). And it would mean 
he was being really, really helpful to Harry, would it not? Now that 
is interesting in itself... I should reflect on it further...


vmonte: 
<< Did Voldemort pose as a father figure? Did he tell Snape that he  
understood him, and that he also had an unhappy childhood? >>

Sigune:
Hm. I find it hard to imagine Snape being lured into DE-ship by 
someone telling him 'he understands' (wouldn't he, afetr his bad 
experiences, be extremely suspicious?), certainly when that someone 
is Voldemort. I personally cannot see how Voldy could be a father 
figure to anyone. I know we have been told in canon that he could be 
charming etc., but we haven't really experienced any of that charm, 
have we?
What I find much more probable is that Snape would have sought out 
dear Voldy as a teacher. Snape is ambitious. And Voldy, however evil, 
IS a great and powerful wizard. I don't think Snape would care about 
the evil bit, if he thought he could pick up a lot for himself. It 
does not seem implausible for a young man, who at age eleven already 
displayed a great knowledge of curses, to be appealed by a wizard 
with such a powerful aura. He'd want to learn from him.


vmonte:
<< How long did it take Snape to realize that Voldemort was  
coning/manipulating him?  Snape is a very intelligent person. It  
seems so unlikely that he would ever let someone like Voldemort (or  
anyone for that matter) lord over him.>>  

Sigune:
Yes, I think that this bondage every DE seems to be in would be the 
main reason for Snape to turn away from Voldy. It makes sense with 
my 'teaching theory': Voldemort is not the kind of person who'd gain 
knowledge in order to impart it to others. I think he'd teach his 
followers a few snippets, and 'useful' things like the Unforgivables, 
but keep the really deep and powerful stuff to himself - he does not 
want to create a competitor for himself. Snape would feel cheated at 
that, and turn to someone who DOES have a mind for teaching, Voldy's 
only equal in power: Dumbledore.

I seem to be the only one on this list who attaches such importance 
to knowledge and teaching in Snape's motivations... But he IS a 
teacher, after all (could he not have found another job, and still be 
in DD's service, if he didn't feel like teaching at all?), and so was 
Dumbledore before he became Headmaster. The core of the good side in 
this battle consists of a Headmaster, his staff and his students; the 
baddies are a selfish Dark Lord and his enslaved followers.


vmonte:
<< Remember when Sirius tells Harry that there were a lot of 
purebloods that at first believed that Voldemort had the right idea?  
They approved of Voldemort's dislike of mudbloods. I think this is 
what first interested Snape into becoming a DE. 
We know by cannon that Snape is a racist! He calls Lily a nasty name 
in the penseive memory.  He would rather be hung upside down before 
allowing a mudblood come to his defense. >>

Sigune:
Here I must disagree with you, and agree with other listees: Snape is 
being humiliated; it really hurts his pride to be perceived as 
needing help. He calls Lily the foulest name he can think of, not 
because he is a racist but because he does not want her, or anybody's 
help. He is just taking his anger out on her.


vmonte:
<< Here is my problem with Snape.  I find it hard to believe that  
knowing what we know about him that he is working for either  
Voldemort or DD.  He seems to have contempt for both sides.  He also  
craves recognition (obvious when you read PoA). >>

Sigune:
I think he is definitely working for Dumbledore, but probably for the 
wrong reasons. It is certainly not out of any feeling of chivalry or 
a firm belief in 'the good'. Kneasy is probably right in saying Snape 
is acting out of revenge - but I don't believe in the family thing. 
Snape feels cheated by Voldy and wants to get at him, but, being 
clever, he knows he is not strong enough to hurt Voldy on his own. So 
he goes to the only person who DOES have the necessary power: 
Dumbledore. Dumbledore is a great tactician; his small Order has been 
more efficient than the combined Ministry forces. I would never argue 
that Snape *likes* the Order members, but I am sure he *does* respect 
them as a body, seeing how they deal Voldy some serious blows.
And of course I cannot resist reiterating my firm belief that Snape 
actually likes Dumbledore, in his own Snapish way.


vmonte:
<< I think that Snape is out for himself. He loves to manipulate 
people (post # 94176). It would be funny if we were to find out that 
the prophecy was a hoax of Snape's.  Maybe he wants the DEs and the 
Order to self-destruct. (post # 97000, and 97079) >>

Sigune:
Teehee - what a great idea, the prophecy as Snape's hoax! How would 
he have manipulated Trelawny into delivering it?!
In any case, yes, Snape would be on Snape's side. He seems to be a 
sort of "All against one, one against all"-person, does he not? But I 
don't think he wants the Order's destruction.

Yours severely,

Sigune