Case for Marauders (was Re: Marauders, Voldemort and the Map)

[romulusmmcdougal]

No: HPFGUIDX 109906

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" <zanelupin at y...> wrote:
> KathyK:
> 
> You're walking a fine line here and I don't think you're 
> succeeding.  He hated them but decided to join up with LV who is
all 
> about the dark arts and decided to dabble in them anyway.  Why?  
> Please tell me why James would choose to do this if he hates the 
> Dark Arts so much.

RMM:
Okay, you bring up some interesting things here.  And I will try to 
address them.
James would join the Death Eaters if his friends like Lupin and 
Pettigrew said "Hey that would be a cool thing to do!"
You denigrate Lupin's influence here too much.  Granted he couldn't 
maintain control over Sirius and James, but he himself said that HE 
LED THEM into becoming anamagi.  So, if it came to something
dangerous 
and exciting, and Lupin said YES, then they did it.  See more below
on 
Lupin.

Powerful magic, in my mind, is probably very intoxicating.
If Professor Voldemort is teaching at Hogwarts, and I believe that he 
was, then he would certainly impress the students with his knowledge 
of DADA. The brightest wizard of his time is teaching 16 year olds 
some of most amazing things that they had ever seen.
I know I would be impressed.  And never mind the fact that there may 
or may not have been something questionable about the Dark Arts in 
there. That is impressive stuff!

KathyK:
>  There is *nothing* to back up a claim that he 
> performed Dark Arts while the canon that he hated said Dark Arts is 
> a good indication that he would not perform them or be a part of a 
> group that does do them.

RMM:
Let me give you an illustration.  Lord Voldemort is the DADA teacher 
and he is instructing the students in some very powerful stuff.
Well, in order to show the students the very powerful countercurse to 
this piece of Dark magic, we will need a student in the class to 
perform that piece of dark magic so that we can illustrate how the 
counter to it works.  And Gee, you will have to perform that piece of 
magic for each and every student so that they may get the counter 
curse right.  What has Voldemort just achieved?  He has blurred the 
line between good and bad.  He is having his students learn bad stuff 
for the sake of learning the good stuff.
They have become desensitized to the Dark Arts. 
[I believe this DADA class is so dangerous for this reason.]

Secondly, many people do things that they detest or hate.
But they do them for a higher reason.
Many hate their jobs, but they perform those jobs so that they may 
bring home money for the family.

I think you need to establish the fact that just because James Potter 
hated the Dark Arts that he did not perform them, before you can 
discount what I am saying about James Potter and his performing the 
dark arts.
James had no problem doing all that illegal and dangerous stuff 
regarding animagism.  He would be a perfect candidate for entry into
a 
higher realm of powerful magic.
After all, is there a class at Hogwarts that differientates for the 
students what is Dark Arts and what is not?
I believe that is left with the DADA teacher no?  And if the DADA 
teacher is teaching you powerful and impressive stuff, and he is
after 
all the DADA teacher, it must be good right?

I get the impression that James Potter jumped in with both feet and
he 
realized only later what he was actually doing and in hindsight hated 
the thought of what he had done.

KathyK:
>  For what?  The sake of cozying up to 
> Voldemort who stands for soemthing else he disdains, Pure Bloodism?

RMM:
James Potter disdains Pure Bloodism?  Where does canon say that?
Are you, like Nora, equating Pure Bloodism with the Dark Arts?
Big mistake if you are.


> KathyK:
> 
> And here I thought young Harry with the "power to vanquish the Dark 
> Lord" was sufficient reason to go after the Potters.  How very
silly 
> of me.  So this is why he went after Harry rather than Neville.  It 
> had nothing to do with Pettigrew giving up their location.  It had 
> nothing to do with Harry being a half-blood like himself.  It was a 
> vendetta against Harry's father.  Bad Luck, Harry.  James has
messed 
> up your life real good, then.  ;-)

RMM:
What is so difficult about what I said?  I am sure others catch my 
meaning.  James Potter was high up in the DEs.  He betrayed, or
defied 
if you will, Voldemort at some point.  The level of his involvement 
necessitated that Voldemort himself destroy James Potter.
Secondly, James Potter now has a son that some prophecy says will 
destroy Voldemort. Voldemort now has a two-fold reason for finding
the 
Potters.  Can this idea be so farfetched?

KathyK:
>It is much more in line with canon that 
> James wasn't a Death Eater and that he's had a thing for Lily since 
> he was at least 15 and that Lily only went out with him in 7th year 
> because he deflated his ego.  Much more in line than saying he was 
> following around the Dark Arts loving, purge-the-mudbloods-from-the-
> world Lord Voldemort until Lily's love saved him.  Why would Lily
go 
> for James if he was affiliated in any way with a group that 
> questioned her right to *exist*?  "James thinks muggleborns are 
> second-class citizens at best but he's just so darn cute, I have to 
> go out with him?"  It doesn't fly.

RMM:
Yes, I would agree when you put it in those terms.  :-)
I believe you oversimplify the situation here.  I could write reams 
about this one, but I will confine myself to a few comments.
First, James has always had a thing for Lily.
Two, Lily doesn't like James big ego.
Three, the DEs and Voldemort were preaching Pure Bloodism, but in 
terms, sugar coated enough, to convince the most sceptical that it
was 
a good movement only interested in the rights of those Pure blood 
magical families.  Pure bloods have rights too!  We are an anti-death 
to the Pure bloods organization.  We don't want to become extinct.  
Save the Purebloods.  We are pro-pureblood.  
People always fall for the rhetoric.
Four, the DEs are a secret society.  You will not know the true aims 
until you reach a certain level.  Do a little study on Freemasonry to 
see how it works.
Five, James, when he became less egotistical, and this is an 
interesting topic in itself, became more attractive to Lily.
Lily would not even know that James had become involved with the DEs 
for quite some time.  Remember, the DEs are a secret organization.
James has ZERO problems with doing stuff on the sly or illegally.

KathyK: 
> And before we get to Remus Lupin's statements in PoA let me add 
this.
> 
> Sirius Black states that he ran away from his home when he was 
> sixteen.  He spent his holidays at his good friend, James' house.  
> Why did Sirius run away?  He says, "Because I hated the whole lot
of 
> them: my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be 
> a Black made you practically royal...my idiot brother, soft enough 
> to believe them" (OoP Ch 6, US ed. p. 111).
> 
> As I recall it's your contention that MWPP were all at one point 
> death eaters.  At least by the age of sixteen we know Sirius Black 
> had enough of that.  He left his family.  And he went to JAMES.  
> Why would he do this if James Potter was so keen to be Lord 
> Voldemort's right-hand man?  Unless all this took place before they 
> reached sixteen?  

RMM:
Yes, good stuff here.  Let me explain.
Correct me if I am wrong here but here is a timeline of Sirius Black 
and James Potter in their last two years at Hogwarts.

5th year ends and the boys go home from school.
That summer, Sirius moves out and into the Potters, before his 6th 
year at Hogwarts.
(This means that Voldemort is very popular at this time, because 
Sirius' parents are really being too much for Sirius.)
Sirius and James enter their 6th year at Hogwarts.
Something happens in the 6th year, because Sirius finds his OWN PLACE 
TO LIVE between his 6th and 7th years at Hogwarts.  He only visits
the 
Potters for Sunday dinner.  This tells me that his visits are with
the 
parents (who have "adopted" him) and not to James.
Where is James?
And what happend to their relationship?  Had James started seeing
Lily 
at this time?  NO, for we are told that they only started going out 
during their 7th year at Hogwarts.
Something happened to cause a rift between James and Sirius -- being 
two of the closest friends imaginable.
That something is the entrance of James, Remus, and Peter into the 
clutches and organization of Voldemort.  And there were others as 
well.  Remus, being a prefect, has influence over others.  In spite
of 
what you say Kathy, Remus is a leader type.  
And I believe what Remus says when he said that HE LED OTHERS and 
himself....
Now, James and Sirius enter their 7th year at Hogwarts.
James begins to see Lily, because Lily likes what she sees in this 
young man now.  James has changed.  He seems less egotistical and
more 
thoughtful and kind and less childish....
What has accomplished this change in James?
I would speculate and say that James has been introduced to some very 
powerful magic that has completely impressed him.
He sees how little he knows in terms of this and it makes him less 
inward looking.  He now has no reason to think that he is great; he 
has just been humbled by the most powerful wizard of his age.  He 
grows to admire and like Voldemort as a true mentor.  Voldemort likes 
James and makes him feel special.  They probably become very close 
friends.
Meantime, Sirius is one who begins to miss his friend James terribly, 
now has to make a decision:  join James or not.
I believe he breaks down and joins up.
 
> KathyK:
> 
> False.  Lupin is referring to the fact that he "led" three other 
> students along with him to betray Dumbledore's trust and to break 
> school (and Ministry) rules by becoming unregistered animagi.

RMM:
Yes you can read it that way, but you can also read it the way I 
stated it.  You have nothing to prove the falsity of my position.
Your way has Lupin repeating himself, my way has Lupin confessing for 
multiple transgressions of Dumbledore's trust.


KathyK:
> However, I don't believe Lupin 
> actually is the one who convinced the other three to act in this 
> way.  We have canonical evidence that James and Sirius were the
ones 
> in charge during school.

RMM:
Well, I belive Remus when he says that he led them.
Black and Potter were the troublemakers there is no doubt.  They were 
up to no good, and they were hard to control, if at all.
But the fact is that Lupin had influence over them and he led them,
as 
he says, into becoming animagi.  
Why, because it was dangerous and exciting for Black and Potter.
Lupin says he led himself and others.....and I say....into the DEs 
because why?  It was dangerous and exciting....save for Sirius.


RMM
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