Harry v. Tom (was: LV never loved anyone)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 110635

Valky wrote :
"My argument is plot related: Tom Riddle *will* have choice when he 
gets to Hogwarts, because he can't very well *not* have; otherwise  he
should never even go to Hogwarts at age 11 he should be 
institutionalised and counselled. = Plothole; so lets not assume it."

Del replies :
Well, actually, I dearly hope you're right. As I said in another post,
it would take away from LV's evilness if it was revealed that he was
already so sociopathic by the time he came to Hogwarts that he didn't
have a chance to fight the big Slytherin Temptation.

I'm just bothered by this "Tom never loved" quote. An 11-year-old boy
who never loved *is* IMO too much of a sociopath to be sent to a
normal school. He *should* be sent into an institution.

Valky wrote :
"However free agency is *not* limited to what choices one has 
*before* they hit the bottom but also what choices they make while 
they are there. "

Del replies :
I agree. I made the decision at 13 to live through Hell on Earth,
partly because I knew my mother and sister wouldn't take my suicide
well, and partly because I believed in life after death, and I
believed I would be condemning myself to *eternal* Hell if I killed
myself. I chose what I saw as the least of 2 evils.

Valky wrote :
"I argue that they *are* exercising their free agency at this time 
and blame doesn't come into it, from me. It's *their* duty to 
themselves to consider their part in blame for the pain or damage 
caused by their condition. This is a choice available to them, 
however hard it might be to make as a result of the detachment in 
their condition. 
Most importantly I argue that removing blame from them because of 
their condition is *not* giving them choice it is taking one away.
Therefore it is *not* compassionate it is _disabling_ and 
inadvertantly cruel."

Del replies :
I'm afraid you lost me there. I don't really understand what you mean.
If you have time, could you try to rephrase it please ?

What I do know about blame though, is that I was able to take the
first steps out of my depression only *after* I stopped giving into
the blame that others laid on me for being depressed. For more than 10
years, I believed people who told me that I had no reason to feel bad,
that I should just pull myself up, that it was my own decision to make
to get better. That was *wrong* and it *prevented* me from feeling
better. It's only when my then-boyfriend told me that those people
were wrong and that I wasn't responsible for being depressed that I
became able to work on getting better. As long as people were blaming
me for exhibiting the *symptoms* of depression, I was paralysed and
couldn't start to work on the *cause* of it.

Valky wrote :
"If you are familiar with the movie 'a Beautiful Mind' you will know 
that what I say is true in real life. Someone deeply affected and 
almost lost to the anomaly of his mind _made_a_choice_ somewhere deep
in the abyss that we throw our careless compassion into hoping 
against hope that it saves. He, alone, through his *own choice*
overcame the unbeatable, with the courage in his own heart he rose 
above the helplessness, self pity, and rage that his isolation 
created in his life. Compassion didnt save him. Love did, and it came
in an entirely different form to compassion. "

Del replies :
I haven't seen the movie yet, but it's high on my wish list.

I agree that most people will be able *at some time* to make a
conscious decision to get out of their pit. *However* it most often
takes *years* before they reach that point.

Moreover there's a big difference between the 2 examples you gave and
me or Tom : both your examples (if I'm not mistaken) concern people
who fell down the pit as *adults*. Tom and I, on the other hand, fell
in it as kids or teenagers, and *stayed* there for a long while. It
means that a whole part of our development was tainted by our
problems. We grew up thinking that the way we were was *normal*, just
unlucky. It took me more than 10 years to start to realise that maybe
I was depressed ! I thought I was perfectly normal, just different.
And obviously Tom also thought of himself as *different*, not as
having a problem to cure. If someone at age 15 had told me I was
depressed, I'm not sure I would have believed them : depression is an
illness, and I wasn't sick.

My husband, on the other hand, developed depression as an adult, and
he knew right away that something was wrong. He knew how he used to
feel and react, and he could measure the difference with the way he
now felt and reacted. He knew that his new behaviour was not healthy.
He knew that normal people don't suffer so much and don't feel that
bad. I didn't know that. When he told me, it was a revelation. I was
27, and it was a revelation for me to learn that I did not *have* to
hate myself, that normal people love themselves. It was a revelation
to be told that I did not *have* to be perfect, that I could make
mistakes and still be satisfied with myself. I didn't know those
things, because I had grown up thinking differently.

That's why I don't expect a 13-year-old sociopath who doesn't know
anything about love to go and look for it, for example.

I know I'm biased, but if I wasn't, who would be :-) ?

Del