Harry v. Tom (was: LV never loved anyone)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 110641


> Valky wrote :
> "My argument is plot related: Tom Riddle otherwise
> should never even go to Hogwarts at age 11 he should be 
> institutionalised and counselled. = Plothole; so lets not assume 
it."
> 
> Del replies :
> Well, actually, I dearly hope you're right.
> I'm just bothered by this "Tom never loved" quote.
> An 11-year-old boy who never loved *is* IMO too much
> of a sociopath to be sent to a normal school. 
> He *should* be sent into an institution.
> 

Valky:
A fair enough and valid point. Provided he hadn't ever freely 
understood or was open to the choice he had to love people, himself, 
life....(Just warming up for Gingers exercise) and hence *was* a 
pyschopath. 

I agree that this point needs to be closed before the end of the 
series to truly satisfy LV the Villain, though I think in the end 
there will still be a resonance of pity for his misguided ways.


> Valky wrote :
> "However free agency is *not* limited to what choices one has 
> *before* they hit the bottom but also what choices they make while 
> they are there. "
> 
> Del replies :
> I agree. I made the decision at 13 to live through Hell on Earth,
> partly because I knew my mother and sister wouldn't take my suicide
> well, and partly because I believed in life after death, and I
> believed I would be condemning myself to *eternal* Hell if I killed
> myself. I chose what I saw as the least of 2 evils.
> 

Valky:
This is really heart wrenching Del. it is true that the person can 
suffer in their personal hell for a very long time before the entity 
of free agency to leave truly manifests for them. 
I have deep compassion for this suffering. 
For you, as you have said however, the entity did make manifest in 
your husband, he gave you the choice and you made it.
Had you rejected it and were outside now looking in at yourself how 
would you feel about your blame for giving up your chance. 

Now juxtapose that Tom Riddle was given to manifest the same 
opportunity but chose against. It would be hard to maintain that he 
was entirely blameless for his continued condition. 

Finally I am a strong believer that love reaches out to everyone in 
time and I think that the message of all fairy tales is this. But I 
digress here and, heaven forbid, start preaching so no more about 
that.  

> Valky wrote :
>snip for space>
> 
> Del replies :
> I'm afraid you lost me there. I don't really understand what you 
mean. If you have time, could you try to rephrase it please ?
> 

Valky:
Rephrase-- I expect that the bit that loses the reader is where I am 
trying to say that it is *never* the *observers* place to allocate 
any blame, but this does not make the sufferer blameless.
On the other hand if the observer is very assertive in denying the 
sufferer their blame then the sufferer, who is probably dependent on 
their clarity, can be hence denied the choice to acknowledge their 
own responsibility. They become disabled by it.
It is the *sufferers* place to consider their own blame, it is the 
conscience that the sufferer of mental affliction needs to heal in 
beginning their Road to Damascus. Read the 12 alcoholics anonymous 
steps. One is heal your conscience.
 
Del wrote:
> What I do know about blame though, is that I was able to take the
> first steps out of my depression only *after* I stopped giving into
> the blame that others laid on me for being depressed. For more 
than 10 years, I believed people who told me that I had no reason to 
feel bad, that I should just pull myself up, that it was my own 
decision to make to get better. That was *wrong* and it *prevented* 
me from feeling better.

Valky:
And you are entirely correct that this is a wrong toward you by 
those people. And, of course, why I advocate that a person must 
never be denied their blame. Yes, I am saying that these people 
denied you your blame. It was yours to decide and nobody elses. And 
when love found you that is what it told you. 
Despite that mental illness can take away your other free agencies 
it doesn't take this. Other people do. 
In the case of Tom Riddle, as with anyone, he lives with his 
conscience alone in his secret, silent to outsiders, place inside. 
He chooses not to be dependent on others clarity even at the tender 
age of 16. Assuming that he did not *become* this way between the 
ages of 11 and Sixteen the he came to Hogwarts much as Harry did, 
with the ability to choose what will affect his conscience. This has 
already been described in other posts using different terms such as 
cognitive understanding of what is morally right. 
Again it *not* my belief that this automatically means he is not 
affected by his past suffering, but it is a choice that he can 
freely make in moving toward a better existence in spite of his 
suffering.

 



> 
> Valky wrote :
> "If you are familiar with the movie 'a Beautiful Mind' you will 
know that what I say is true in real life. 
> 
> Del replies :
> I haven't seen the movie yet, but it's high on my wish list.
> 
> Moreover there's a big difference between the 2 examples you gave 
and me or Tom : both your examples (if I'm not mistaken) concern 
people who fell down the pit as *adults*. Tom and I, on the other 
hand, fell in it as kids or teenagers, and *stayed* there for a long 
while. 

Valky:
Actually Del when you see the movie you will see that John Nash is 
*exactly* like you and Tom.

Nash suffered delusional paranoid schizophrenia from an age so young 
that his doctor could never determine it. Throughout a vast period 
of his childhood he was unaware that he was not clearly able to 
differentiate between what was real and what was not in the physical 
world. By the time he was diagnosed he had married and obtained his 
Doctorate in Mathematics been a University Professor for many years 
and had several close acquaintances in his life that were not real 
people. One of them so close to him that it is impossible to imagine 
that it did not break his heart in a most traumatic way.

He was unable to function happily on medication and eventually made 
a concious choice born of a deep love that he had found in his life 
to fight the disease on his own terms. the delusions never went 
away, his mind fought his heart with fierce rebuke, he had not 
chosen an easy path. He had been *ill* for close to 40 years. 
When the choice Love gave him was offered he took it and made an 
impressive stand for the power of the human heart. See the movie, 
Del I am sure you will be moved eternally by it. 



> 
> That's why I don't expect a 13-year-old sociopath who doesn't know
> anything about love to go and look for it, for example.
> 

Valky:
With this I entirely agree, he will not look for it. But love is 
everywhere and it does find you. It found JkR when she needed it and 
it found you and (just a little peek at my soul) it found me.

Best to You Del 
>From Valky