Harry... Tsk Tsk (Re: Snape's DE past)

[Brenda M.]

No: HPFGUIDX 111550

> Magda:
> Stopping the occlumency lessons did not leave Harry any more 
> vulnerable than he already was.
> 
> Alla:
> We don't know that. Yes, of course there is a big chance that he 
> still could have that vision, OR he might have accomplished better 
> results in Occlumency by that time.
> I think it left him significantly more vulnerable
> 
> Odette:
> I am of the opinion that had Snape continued with the occlumency 
> lessons Harry may not have had the vision. On a couple of occasions 
> in OOTP (sorry don't have book with me so can't give page numbers) 
Harry wakes himself up before reaching the door and thinks to himself 
> that it is his guilt or conscious mind waking him because he knows 
that he is supposed to be stopping himself from having those dreams.  
> As poor as the occlumency lessons may have been, they seemed to be 
working and had Harry practiced they might have been successful. IMHO.
> 
> Kemper:
> I agree with Magda.  And with Odette to the extent that had Harry 
> practiced he would have been successful at occulemency, but Harry 
> chose NOT to practice even though he was told/encouraged to by 
people 
> who had a grasp on the gravity of the situation: DD indirectly 
> through Snape, Hermione, Sirius and Lupin.  It is not as though 
Harry 
> thought Occulemency was another class to pass.  He knew the 
> importance of it and chose not to practice.


Brenda happily butting in:

YES! Absolutely. Just how many times in the book does it say that 
Harry chooses not to practice Occlumency? I lost counts after the 
following chapter. If one needs the canon proof of this, koinonia02 
has composed a post full of references in Message #100571.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100571>

But I understand Harry's curiosity of the long corridor dream. The 
lad has been dreaming about it since the summer. He knows his dreams 
are somewhat unusual: Frank Bryce's dream, attack on Arthur Weasley, 
torture on Rockwood... Harry knew his dreams hold crucial clues in 
figuring out what Voldemort was up to.

What he should have realized though, is the fact that his Sirius 
dream came AFTER Voldemort became aware of the mental connection. 
Snape tells Harry during their first Occlumency lesson:

" 'The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you 
are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced 
that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has 
realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings 
in return -'

'And he might TRY and MAKE ME DO THINGS?' asked Harry. " [OoP, 471. 
UK. My emphasis added]

Snape answers "He might" to this.

I have seen other posters defending Harry by saying that Harry didn't 
know Voldemort could send him false visions and lure Harry out. That 
all the visions/dreams he had so far were all true. BUT he was 
informed by Snape that there IS a possibility that Voldemort will use 
the connection to "try and make [Harry] do things". Is it only me, or 
does that imply the scnerio where Harry does things because Voldemort 
tried and made him?

As for those who point out that the Occlumency lessons leaving Harry 
vulnerable, have you conveniently forgotten what Hermione had to say 
about this?

" 'Maybe it's a bit like illness,' said Hermoine, looking concerned 
when Harry confided in her and Ron. 'A fever or something. It has to 
get worse before it gets better.' " [OoP, 489. UK]

Don't know about you, but that makes perfect sense to me. Physical 
immune system works the same way, after all.

In JKR and Steven Kloves' interview in CoS DVD, she roughly said that 
Hermione and Dumbledore easily fill the role of providing necessarily 
information, because Hermione's read it somewhere and Dumbledore 
speaks for JKR.

It seems to be the common argument that if Dumbledore had informed 
Harry of the prophecy, then Harry would have tried Occlumency harder. 
But IMO that is not necessarily true. I believe learning the prophecy 
should have come AFTER Harry had mastered Occlumency, for the 
following reason:

1. His destiny as "murderer or else, victim" would have left him 
quite unsettling, he would have spent the whole summer dreaming about 
it, nightmares. This would have left Harry emotionally vulnerable, 
making him a very easy target for Voldemort. Voldemort could have 
readily accessed the full content of prophecy right then.

2. Even if DD told Harry 'everything', DD wouldn't have mentioned the 
fact that the record is being kept at DoM, now would he? He probably 
did not think it necessary, since he wasn't aware of H-LV connection 
running deeper than merely on emotional/ distance level.

So either way, Harry became the victim of Voldemort's Legilimens 
trickery. At least now that Harry learned Occlumency then prophecy, 
Voldemort is still in dark concerning prophecy.


>>> Kemper: If it's anyone's fault that Harry's Godfather is dead, 
it's Harry's. <<<

YES, I LOVE YOU FOR SAYING THAT! Finally *somebody* agrees with me! 
My long rant on the topic is in Post #100627: "Who's to Blame for 
Sirius' Death" 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100627>

While I'm not too sure about whether Occlumency would have helped 
with Sirius' chance, (Harry-Voldy connection seems to be more than 
traditional Occlumency-Legilemency to me, Harry was understandably 
curious about the long corridor...) he should have been more careful 
*judging* the dream logically and act accordingly, instead of rashing 
out and impulsively flying to MoM.

But it doesn't matter who was at fault, really. Sirius' death 
supposedly plays a significant role, and he is much better off in 
the "next adventure", happily ever after, then running and hiding 
from WW...


Brenda