Did Snape work for Dumbledore from Day One?

[eloise_herisson]

No: HPFGUIDX 118948


What a very enjoyable, well-argued post, Sharon!

Let me first say that I agree totally with the comments that Nora 
made in response,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/118937

although I think this is the first time that George and Diana have 
been credited with having anything to do with Bang!

Nora's post sums up my thematic objections to this theory, so I'll 
confine myself to comments on some specific points to do with the 
relationship between Snape and Dumbledore.

Sharon:
> But first, I have to show you that Snape and Dumbledore's 
association 
> goes back far longer than the fourteen years that Snape has worked 
at 
> Hogwarts: in fact, their partnership goes back to before The Prank.

Eloise:
I certainly think that they have a relationship that goes back that 
far, but I wouldn't call it a partnership exactly, certainly not in 
the early days.

Sharon:
> THE PRANK.
<snip> 
> "Your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke 
on 
> me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got 
> cold feet at the last moment," Snape tells Harry (PoA, Chp 
14).  "Had 
> their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."
> 
> Surely, if a joke that results in the death of a student deserves 
> expulsion, a joke that merely puts that student's life in danger 
> should warrant some sort of punishment.  And yet –we have no proof 
> that any of them were punished.  In fact, James Potter – who Snape 
> believed to have been in on the plan – was made Head Boy later in 
his 
> Hogwarts career.  This must have been a hearty blow to Snape's ego –
 
> the boy he believed had tried to kill him was suddenly laden with 
> honor.

Eloise:
I am sure that this *was* a huge blow to Snape. I have argued in the 
past that this was the pivotal event which sent Snape into the arms 
of Voldemort. If one as apparently good and wise as Dumbledore could 
let such a crime go unpunished (Snape being unable to understand such 
a capacity to forgive), then was there really such a difference 
between Light and Dark, Good and Evil? Why not just join the side 
potentially most advantageous to oneself? Dumbledore's actions could 
be seen as the actions of one afraid to use power; Snape became 
convinced of the same argument that Quirrell had:

"A foolish young man I was then, full of ridiculous ideas about good 
and evil. Lord Voldemort showed me how wrong I was. There is no good 
and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it.
"


Sharon: 
> We know that Dumbledore favors the Gryffindors now – there is no 
> reason to doubt that he would have done so earlier in his career, 
> either.  Snape must have seen Dumbledore's protection of Potter and 
> his friends as yet another show of favoritism toward a house that 
had 
> always been seen as nobler than Slytherin.  

Eloise:
Hmm. You can certainly argue Dumbledore's favouritism, but I'm not 
sure there are really grounds, except for the dreadful rubbing -the-
Slytherins'-noses-in-it scene at the end of PS/SS. I am sure that 
whatever your house, you regard it as the most noble (unless, perhaps 
you're a Hufflepuff). We see things largely  from a Gryffindor 
viewpoint. Chapter 6 of OoP is entitled, "The Noble and Most Ancient 
House of Black". Views of what is noble (or in another case "disgrace 
the name of wizard") vary according to your standpoint as is pointed 
out in the altercation between Malfoy and Arthur in PS/SS..



Sharon:
> Therefore, simply forbidding Snape to keep Remus' werewolf status a 
> secret would not have had any impact on the boy, unless for some 
> reason Snape respected Dumbledore enough to keep silent.  There are 
> theories out there which say that Dumbledore may have blackmailed 
> Snape into keeping silent – what if it was not blackmail, but a 
show 
> of deference?  

Eloise:
I'm not sure that blackmail is quite Dumbledore's style. But if 
saying, "Breathe a word of this and you're out" is blackmail, then I 
guess I could go with it. ;-)

Sharon:
> If Snape and Dumbledore had already been working together in some 
> fashion, then it would make sense for Snape to be so willing to 
keep 
> quiet about the werewolf.  Even if Snape did not understand why it 
> was important to allow Sirius and Remus to remain at Hogwarts, he 
> would have been quicker to believe that Dumbledore had the best of 
> intentions in doing so.  


Eloise:
My long standing belief about Snape and Dumbledore's relationship has 
been reinforced by the snap shot we see in OoP. Father-son 
relationships are a constant theme throughout the books. We have 
absent or dead fathers. We have fathers who do their best and fail. 
We have fathers idolised by their sons and fathers demonised by them.

I have always believed that Snape had an essentially absent father, 
either in the sense of his being physically absent, or emotionally 
detached from his son. We certainly aren't given any idea that Snape 
had a warm, close knot family life (and I would suggest that all 
those curses he knew on entering Hogwarts might relfect his hatred of 
his father, on whom he would have liked to inflict them, they might 
certainly be a reflection of unhappiness as much as anything else). 

On entering Hogwarts, I believe that for the first time, Snape was 
presented with a strong male figure, the most powerful wizard of his 
day, no less, to whom he could look up. Whatever Snape's own magical 
predilections, Dumbledore's power must have had some attraction for a 
boy who himself had such strong magical potential and ambition. If 
factoring in a large ego, here also was someone *worthy* of being his 
father, though actually I don't go along with that as I think Snape 
has a pretty damaged ego and the posturing and outward pride is a 
mask for that. I also believe that Dumbledore in some way or other 
cares for all the students in his care, even the Crabbes and Goyles 
and this attitude of care from an older man was something which snape 
had not encountered before.

As Transfiguration teacher, Dumbleldore had seen another very bright, 
capable boy from an unhappy background and in need of a father figure 
sorted into Slytherin House. He watched him as he grew in power and  
was allowed to develop in full those Slytherin traits which 
eventually led to his transformation into Lord Voldemort. I think he 
decided not to make the same errors of omission with this new boy.

And that, to me, is what their relationship is all about. Dummbledore 
is Snape's surrogate father and snape his difficult, sometimes 
waywards, son. The ties may sometimes be stretched to breaking point, 
but they are still there and both knows that ultimately the other is 
there for them. I see it constantly in their interaction. As I do 
also in Snape's behaviour towards Harry, though obviously this is not 
reciprocated (no-one said that fathers have to be good).

Sharon:
<snip>
> "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of 
sixteen," 
> Snape says to Dumbledore (PoA Chp 21).  "You haven't forgotten 
that, 
> Headmaster?  You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill 
*me*?"  
> ("Me" is in italics in the original.)
<snip> 
> "He once tried to kill *me*."  Is this simply the pain of the 
victim 
> of a prank that luckily went awry?
> 
> "He once tried to kill *me*."  Or is it Snape's way of saying, "He 
> tried to kill someone important to you once before, you know.  
*Me.* 
> Imagine if he had succeeded!  Are you going to take that chance 
> again?"

Eloise:
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I take this at face value, simply "me" as 
opposed to "him".


Sharon: 
> Dumbledore replies, "My memory is as good as it ever was, 
Severus."  
> Dumbledore is essentially telling Severus that not only does he 
> remember the events that occurred nearly twenty years previously, 
but 
> he is also asking that Severus remember himself the reasons for why 
> he chose to remain quiet about the werewolf.  "My memory is good – 
> please make sure yours is as well, and *remember* why I do this." 
> 
> The words must have had some sort of effect, because the next thing 
> that happens is Snape breaking eye contact leaving the room, 
without 
> another word.

Eloise:
Equally, he might be telling him that he remembers everything 
including all that Snape confessed to him when he returned, prodigal 
like, to the fold. Or even, he's just saying, "For goodness Sakes 
Severus, how many times do we have to go over this? Will you never 
accept my decision?" Because this is a constant theme of their 
relationship: Snape disagrees with or doubts Dumbledore's judgment, 
sometimes to the extent of even acting alone in ways that he must 
know Dumbledore would disapprove of, yet their fundamental 
relationship never seems to falter. They don't always trust each 
other's judgment, but they trust each other.

Sharon:
<snip>
> 
> If Severus Snape had really and truly felt that Dumbledore was 
doing 
> a disservice to him by allowing Remus and Sirius to remain at 
> Hogwarts, he would have told about the werewolf.  

Eloise:
I confess that this is troubling me. He could so easily have let 
slip. However, it would have had very serious consequences, including 
the possibility that Dumbledore himself would have had to leave the 
school. As an ambitious young man, Snape might have regarded it in 
his own best interests  not to rock the boat and lose the opportunity 
to become the most powerful wizard he could. 

Rmember that he did not know that he was going to find out that Remus 
was a werewolf, that he was going to find out one of *Dumbledore's* 
secrets.


Sharon:
Had there not been 
> a pre-existing relationship between the two, Snape would never have 
> been able to reach the level of trust required for him to return to 
> Dumbledore as a Death Eater and become a spy.  Why, after being 
> betrayed in this fashion, would Snape have ever gone to Dumbledore 
> for help?
> 
> There must have been some sort of bond between the two before the 
> Prank occurred.  Whether this bond was intensified or weakened by 
the 
> events of that night are uncertain – but it had been forged long 
ago.

Eloise:
Definitely a bond. And a knowledge that Dumbledore was the one person 
who would be willing to hear his side of the story, be willing to 
forgive, be willing to give a second chance. And of course, although 
Dumbledore apparently didn't punish Sirius and James, neither do we 
have any indication that he ever showed any prejudice toward Snape 
for attempting to get him as much as Remus into trouble. 

I would love to carry on to the next section of your post, but time 
presses and this essentially covers my view of the relationship.

~Eloise