Did Snape work for Dumbledore from Day One?

[Sharon]

No: HPFGUIDX 118950


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" 
<eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:
> 
> What a very enjoyable, well-argued post, Sharon!
> 

Thanks!

> Eloise:
> Let me first say that I agree totally with the comments that Nora 
> made in response,
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/118937
> 
> although I think this is the first time that George and Diana have 
> been credited with having anything to do with Bang!
> 

I shall play stupid for a moment, and confess that I don't have a 
clue who George & Diana are, or what Bang is, being somewhat new over 
here - or at least, new to the boards.


> Eloise:
> I certainly think that they have a relationship that goes back that 
> far, but I wouldn't call it a partnership exactly, certainly not in 
> the early days.
> 

I had trouble coming up with a word to define the relationship, 
actually.  It's not a friendship, exactly - it's more than an 
acquaintance, and relationship to me implies things of a sexual 
nature, which is *definately* not what I was aiming 
at!  "Partnership", to me, seems about right.  They were both in 
league to bring down Voldy - at least, originally, they were.  I 
think it probably grew into the father-son thing we see now later, 
after Snape was working at Hogwarts.


> Eloise:
> I am sure that this [the Prank} *was* a huge blow to Snape. I have 
argued in the 
> past that this was the pivotal event which sent Snape into the arms 
> of Voldemort. If one as apparently good and wise as Dumbledore 
could 
> let such a crime go unpunished (Snape being unable to understand 
such 
> a capacity to forgive), then was there really such a difference 
> between Light and Dark, Good and Evil? Why not just join the side 
> potentially most advantageous to oneself? 

Yes!  Even before Noel and I started in on this theory, I'd thought 
the Prank had severe implications in Snape's turn toward Voldy.  

And certainly, the line between Black and White (Good and Evil) in 
JKR grows murkier with every book.  One can do good things for the 
wrong reasons (such as Harry saving all of the captives in the Second 
Task); one can do equally wrong things for good reasons (such as 
Sirius giving the SK position to Peter).

As for joining the most advantageous side: that would be Peter's 
agrument to Sirius and Remus, who don't buy it.  

PoA, Chp 19:
"He - he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew.  "Wh - what 
was there to be gained by refusing him?"

"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has 
ever existed?" said Black, with a terrible fury in his face.  "Only 
innocent lives, Peter!"

[/quote]



> Eloise:
> Hmm. You can certainly argue Dumbledore's favouritism, but I'm not 
> sure there are really grounds, except for the dreadful rubbing -the-
> Slytherins'-noses-in-it scene at the end of PS/SS. 

<snip>

> Views of what is noble (or in another case "disgrace 
> the name of wizard") vary according to your standpoint as is 
pointed 
> out in the altercation between Malfoy and Arthur in PS/SS..

The scene at the end of PS/SS is the one I was thinking of when I 
wrote that line, actually.  And I grant that as we see the world 
through Harry's eyes, we get a very lopsided view of any sort of 
favoritism anyone would show.  We know how Snape treats the 
Gryffindors as compared to the Slytherins; but how does he treat the 
Ravenclaws and the Hufflepuffs, who surely take their Potions classes 
together?  And if he were teaching a joint Slytherin-Ravenclaw class, 
would he be so forgiving of the Slytherins when he needn't worry 
about how the Gryffindors will take it?

The same, I think, is much the same for Dumbledore, who is largely 
removed from the daily workings of the school, at least at the 
classroom level.  I'm actually kind of curious if we're ever going to 
see Dumbledore teach a class, and how he would treat the students on 
that playing field.


> Eloise:
> I'm not sure that blackmail is quite Dumbledore's style. But if 
> saying, "Breathe a word of this and you're out" is blackmail, then 
I 
> guess I could go with it. ;-)

Me neither.  I do think if he had used blackmail, it would have been 
of the variety you mention.  He has used some level of...convincing 
before, however, in regards to getting Kreacher to tell him Sirius' 
whereabouts at the end of OoP.

(Honestly, this sort of Dumbledore goes straight into whatever 
Puppetmaster theories are out there, which I will readily admit that 
I'm not very well read on.)

> Eloise:
<snipped all the lovely bits about fathers & sons>
Dummbledore 
> is Snape's surrogate father and snape his difficult, sometimes 
> waywards, son. The ties may sometimes be stretched to breaking 
point, 
> but they are still there and both knows that ultimately the other 
is 
> there for them. I see it constantly in their interaction. As I do 
> also in Snape's behaviour towards Harry, though obviously this is 
not 
> reciprocated (no-one said that fathers have to be good).
> 

Oooo, yes, exactly.  There is absolutely a very strong and caring 
relationship between Snape and Dumbledore - perhaps more caring from 
DD's side than Severus but no less intense.  And regardless of 
whether or not you believe that Snape has been working for DD all 
along, I think that such a bond only strengthened after Voldy's fall.


> Sharon:
> <snip>
> > "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of 
> sixteen," 
> > Snape says to Dumbledore (PoA Chp 21).  "You haven't forgotten 
> that, 
> > Headmaster?  You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill 
> *me*?"  
> > ("Me" is in italics in the original.)
> <snip> 
> > "He once tried to kill *me*."  Is this simply the pain of the 
> victim 
> > of a prank that luckily went awry?
> > 
> > "He once tried to kill *me*."  Or is it Snape's way of 
saying, "He 
> > tried to kill someone important to you once before, you know.  
> *Me.* 
> > Imagine if he had succeeded!  Are you going to take that chance 
> > again?"
> 
> Eloise:
> I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I take this at face value, simply "me" as 
> opposed to "him".
> 

I can deal.  *grin*  A lot of this theory requires a serious leap of 
faith.


> Eloise:
Because this is a constant theme of their 
> relationship: Snape disagrees with or doubts Dumbledore's judgment, 
> sometimes to the extent of even acting alone in ways that he must 
> know Dumbledore would disapprove of, yet their fundamental 
> relationship never seems to falter. They don't always trust each 
> other's judgment, but they trust each other.

Yes, and I think Snape even likes to hear it now and again.  He needs 
the reassurance, and Dumbledore is always willing to give it to him.  
We have very rarely seen Dumbledore tell Snape "I don't agree with 
you," but in nearly every confrontation, we see Snape argue with 
Dumbledore, who smiles and (proverbally) pats Snape on the head and 
tells him how smart he is, but that he'd rather do this other thing 
instead.  

(Usually that other thing invovling not punishing Harry Potter, who 
more often than not deserves it.)

This just reminds me again of how many people in the world must *not* 
trust Snape, in order to cause in him such a complex that he demands 
the constant reassurement that he really is good enough, smart 
enough, and gosh darn it, DD likes him (even if no one else does).

> 
> Sharon:
> <snip>
> > 
> > If Severus Snape had really and truly felt that Dumbledore was 
> doing 
> > a disservice to him by allowing Remus and Sirius to remain at 
> > Hogwarts, he would have told about the werewolf.  
> 
> Eloise:
> I confess that this is troubling me. He could so easily have let 
> slip. However, it would have had very serious consequences, 
including 
> the possibility that Dumbledore himself would have had to leave the 
> school. As an ambitious young man, Snape might have regarded it in 
> his own best interests  not to rock the boat and lose the 
opportunity 
> to become the most powerful wizard he could. 

Good point.  And perhaps this is something DD reminded him of, as 
well.  Although, had Snape not been connected to DD in some way at 
this point, then Snape wouldn't have been much concerned at DD's 
removal, would he?

Anyway - Snape did let the information slip, at the end of PoA, 
although I suspect this was more because he felt betrayed once again 
by DD for believing Harry and Hermione's story, not punishing them, 
and allowing Sirius to go free.  After all, Snape had been hoping for 
expulsion in the matter of James and Sirius when he originally went 
after Remus Lupin - and in PoA, he asks for nothing less than 
suspension.  Yet neither of these punishments were handed out to any 
party.  Dumbledore says that Snape had suffered a "severe 
disappointment" - would that disappointment have caused Snape to 
mention Remus' status as werewolf, thereby resulting in his removal 
from Hogwarts?

(Perhaps as a defiant gesture to DD as well: "Look, here, I do have 
some power over others, Old Man, you can't completely be the boss of 
me.  Thhhhbbbt.  Hand over the cookies.")

--az/Sharon, who refuses not to have fun while promoting conspiracy 
theories, nor is all that protective of the lemon cookies in the 
kitchen