Yet another defense of Snape's Occlumency lessons (long)

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 120052


Heavily snipped as it was getting long.

Alla:
<snip>

First, let me say it first Harry did not practice. He did not. No
question about it. It was Harry's mistake. I am arguing though
that Snape's lessons gave Harry almost no help and a lot of harm. In
fact, I was having flashbacks to their first potion lesson, where
(in my opinion only) Snape went out of his way to make Harry hate
him.

<snip>

So, before Harry has to come to Snape's office, Harry has no idea
why he has to learn Occlumency, right?

Dungrollin:
Well, actually, one can argue that he should at the very least have 
had some suspicions.  In 12GP Snape says "Occlumency, Potter.  The 
magical defence of the mind against external penetration."  It 
should be fairly obvious to someone who's been having visions of 
real events happening hundreds of miles away from the point of LV, 
why he might need to learn it, shouldn't it?  Perhaps not the 
specifics, but he knows that his mind and Voldy's are linked
through the scar.  Clearly DD wants it to stop, and clearly DD 
thinks the best way to do this is for him to learn Occlumency.




Alla again:
<snip>
True, Snape tells Harry to clear his mind, but again he does not
tell him HOW to do it. No breathing exercises, no nothing. I read it
differently than you do. I don't think it is sufficient. I know I
would not have found such instructions to be sufficient if I was
given them for meditation and I am twice as old as Harry is.
<snipping Alla's quotes of Snape being nasty, and... some other
bits>

Dungrollin, previously:
> I'm not sure how posters can argue that Snape hasn't told
> Harry how to practise. Is it that bit in the first lesson, where
> Harry says `you're not telling me how'? Because
> immediately after that Snape *does* explain about ridding one's
> mind of emotion.

Alla: 
NO, he does not, not in my opinion, he just say empty your
mind of th emotion he does not say how to do it.

Dungrollin now: 

But Harry *never once* says (and neither does the narrator) that he 
finds it difficult or impossible to clear his mind at night.  The 
only hint we get that it *might* have been difficult was in the 
quote that you snipped, - not until after DD leaves in April when 
too much has been happening for Harry to even remember to try.  And 
then it was just a "...he was sure he would not have been able to 
empty his mind even if he had tried" referring to the events of the 
previous week.  

Hardly evidence of someone wrestling with the impossibility of a 
task for which he's been ill-prepared. 

If the reason that he wasn't progressing was that Snape
hadn't explained how to clear his mind, we'd should have seen
some instances of him lying in bed trying to clear his mind and 
failing.  And we didn't see anything like that.




Dungrollin, previously:
And why does Harry insist that he'll never forgive Snape?
Because of Snape's sneer when Harry told him `He's got
Padfoot at the place where it's hidden!' Because Snape
goaded Sirius and implied Sirius was a coward. No resentment about
Snape not teaching him Occlumency *properly*, Harry takes the blame
for not learning himself. However, after Harry takes the blame, he
starts trying to blame Snape for everything, he does a U-turn and
says Snape stopped the lessons, and accuses him of making it worse,
making it easier for Voldy. DD doesn't reply to the accusations, but
says he trusts Snape, and implies that the reason Snape stopped the
lessons was that he couldn't overcome his feelings about James. - No
mention of Snape not teaching Occlumency properly *while the lessons
were going on*.

Alla replied:

Nope, blaming him for Sirius death is only aprt of the problem as
you said yourself, Harry also tells Dumbledore that he felt worse
after the lessons and he INDEED felt worse. 

Dungrollin now:
But Dumbledore doesn't say "Goodness, was it really *worse* after 
the lessons?  Snape can't have been teaching you properly..."
does he?  He ignores it, knowing that it doesn't mean Snape was 
guilty of anything.

Alla:
Remember this?
<snipping quotes>
Here is my question to you. If indeed feeling worse after the lesson
is unavolidable side effect, which we have no proof of, why, oh why
did Snape not WARNED Harry that he WILL feel worse?

Dungrollin:
Now that's a good point, but by the same argument, why on earth 
didn't Harry go to the next Occlumency lesson saying "I felt
really dreadful after the last lesson, is that normal?" 




Dungrollin, previously:

> My biggest problem with the idea that Snape didn't teach Harry
> Occlumency properly, is Snape's motivation. Why on earth should
> he deliberately omit vital instructions? Nobody (IIRC) seems to
> have suggested a plausible motivation – but I doubt that any
will go as far as postulating ESE!Snape either.

Alla replied:

Eh? Why not? For the record, I don't believe in ESE! Snape, but
quite strong case can be put together in favor of ESE!Snape, I think.

Dungrollin now:
That's exactly my point – you don't believe in ESE!Snape
– so give me a good motivation for him deliberately withholding 
vital information about the proper way to learn Occlumency. 
That's what you were arguing before, wasn't it?




Dungrollin, previously:
>> So don't blame it all on Snape, particularly when DD and Harry
> have both accepted the blame for their various mistakes.

Alla:
Sorry, but may I continue blame A LOT of it on Snape, please? :o)
But don't worry I blame Dumbledore too and even Harry,although to
lesser extent.

Dungrollin:
Sorry, that should have read: I don't think you can blame it all
on Snape...

In conclusion: Harry knew full well what Snape was like, and that 
Snape would take every opportunity to insult him, and he knew what 
Snape's teaching methods were like.  It doesn't alter the
fact that he *was* capable of clearing his mind and he didn't do 
it.  It never occurred to him that actually learning Occlumency 
would have got him out of the lessons eventually, and more quickly 
than not learning it.  Nor did it occur to him that if he were 
*really* concerned that Snape was doing more harm than good there 
were three other order members around he could have gone to with 
questions.

Obviously the lessons were a disaster, and obviously DD should have 
taught Harry himself. I wrote the original post to counter claims 
that Snape *deliberately* didn't teach Harry properly.  IMO, all
he can be accused of is being Snape.

Dungrollin