Yet another defense of Snape's Occlumency lessons (long)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 120040


Dungrolin:

Okay, I know that the Occlumency lessons have been gone over a 
million times before, but since I wasn't really sure what I
thought about it, I've gone through OotP again, looking for the
bits about Occlumency, and have come out of it on Snape's side. 
I'm trying to be as even-handed as I can be, and trying to make
this canon-based rather than opinion-based.  So here we go, let's 
read it again:
 Lesson 1:
Snape *does* give Harry a damn good reason for learning 
Occlumency: "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware 
that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings.  He has 
also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is 
to say, he has realised that he might be able to access your 
thoughts and  feelings in return –"
"And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry.  "*Sir*?" 
he added hurriedly.
"He might," said Snape...
 
Now, presumably, there are any number of ways that Voldy could 
make Harry do things – and any number of things that he could make
Harry do.  The Order may not even know at this point that it would  
be possible for Voldy to send false visions to Harry.  Being more 
specific and giving examples when you only have DD's suspicions 
could backfire if Voldy tried something that they didn't mention, 
as Harry would assume it was real.  Better to just teach him 
Occlumency and stop all of it.
Anyway, on the first attempt, Snape says: 
"You may use your wand to attempt to disarm me, or defend yourself 
in any other way you can think of". Snape then breaks into
Harry's mind.
That was the first test to see Harry's natural aptitude.
 
Then Snape explains a bit more "You must remain focused.  Repel me 
with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand."
> Harry gets stroppy: "I'm trying [...] but you're not telling
>me how!"
"Manners, Potter," said Snape dangerously.  "Now, I want you to 
close your eyes. [...]  Clear your mind, Potter, [...] Let go of all 
emotion [...] You're not doing it Potter ... you will need more 
discipline than this ... focus, now ..."
 
Harry does try, but it doesn't work, Snape breaks into his
memories again.  Snape says that Harry isn't trying, Harry
insists that he is, but Snape says: "Then prove it! Master yourself! 
[...] Control your anger, discipline your mind!"
At the end of the lesson, he says "You are to rid your mind of all 
emotion every night before sleep; empty it, make it blank and calm, 
you understand?"  Is that not an explanation of what Harry's
supposed to do?


Alla:

Oh, Dungrolin. Great post, but you drew me in the Occlumency debate 
again. So, if anybody asks, it is your entire fault :o) I am just 
kidding of course.

That said let's proceed. I am sorry to say but after going
through 
Occlumency pages again, even only after the first lesson, I came out 
of it being even more on Harry's side.

First, let me say it first Harry did not practice. He did not. No 
question about it. It was Harry's mistake. I am arguing though
that 
Snape's lessons gave Harry almost no help and a lot of harm. In 
fact, I was having flashbacks to their first potion lesson, where 
(in my opinion only) Snape went out of his way to make Harry hate 
him.


Let's look at your description of the first lesson. I hope you
don't 
mind that I add some quotations to it, because the picture you drew 
looks 
 a bit Snape - sided to me. :o)


So, before Harry has to come to Snape's office, Harry has no idea 
why he has to learn Occlumency, right?


"And why does Professor Dumbledore think I need it, sir?"
said 
Harry, looking directly into Snape's dark, cold eyes and
wondering 
whether he would answer.
Snape looked back at him for a moment and then said it 
contemptuously, "Surely even you could have worked that out by
now, 
Potter? The Dark Lord is highly skilled at legilimency-"– OOP, 
p.530, paperback

I find this quote to be weird. Why would Snape assume that Harry 
would already know anything about Legilimency? I guess, he was just 
being his usual nasty self.


Anyways, Harry is trying to figure out why he has to learn it; Snape 
is telling him about connection between him and Voldie. But I argued 
it earlier – it is an old news for Harry, expect the fact that 
connection strengthened for some reason.

"Harry's heart was pumping fast again. None of this added up.
But 
why does professor Dumbledore want to stop it?" he asked 
abruptly. "I don't like it much, but it's been useful,
hasn't it? I 
mean 
 I saw that snake attack Mr. Weasley and if I hadn't, 
professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would
he? 
Sir ?" – OOP, p.531.

By the way, Pippin argued that Harry found the connection to be 
cool; I think this quote clearly shows that Harry did not like it, 
but only thought that it could save lives. Anyways, back on track

Before your quote about "make me do things" one more thing
happens 
in their conversation.
Harry continues to ask questions about Arthur's vision

"How come I saw through the snake's eyes if it's
Voldemort's 
thoughts I am sharing?"
"Do not say the dark Lord's name!" spat Snape" 
"Professor Dumbledore says his name," said Harry quietly,

"Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard," Snape muttered.
"While 
he may feel secure enough to use the name
 the rest of us
"
He 
rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where 
Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin"- p.532


Now, my very first reaction to this part was something along the 
line "how dare you, Snape, Harry earned the right to call Voldie 
whatever name he wants"
It is possible that Voldemort's name makes Dark Mark to react in 
some way, I will concede, but until I know that for sure, I choose 
to think that Snape is simply jealous of Harry who is brave enough 
to do what an "extremely powerful wizard Dumbledore" does
call 
Voldemort by his real name.

If I am correct, are you saying that teacher who is jealous of his 
student will be able to teach such student properly? Granted this is 
just speculation, but it is canon based speculation.



True, Snape tells Harry to clear his mind, but again he does not 
tell 
him HOW to do it. No breathing exercises, no nothing. I read it 
differently than you do. I don't think it is sufficient. I know I 
would not have found such instructions to be sufficient if I was 
given them for meditation and I am twice as old as Harry is.

Snape does not tell Harry how to get rid of his anger at all. 
Instead he gets angry too. Good way of learning by example, 
Snape. :o)

"Harry stood up again, his heart thumping wildly as though he had 
just seen Cedric dead in the graver yard. Snape looked paler than 
usual, and angrier though not nearly as angry as Harry was.
"I – am – making – an- effort," he said through
clenched teeth."
"I told you to empty yourself of emotion!"
"Yeah? Well, I am finding that hard at the moment," Harry
snarled.

Instead of telling Harry to breath, to relax, I don't know, do 
something that might HELP Harry, Snape becomes hysterical himself 
(in my opinion only)


"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!"
said 
Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their 
sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad 
memories and allow themselves to be provoked that easily – weak 
people, in other words, they stand no chance against their powers! 
He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!" 
"I am not weak, "said Harry in low voice, fury now pumping
through 
him so that eh thought he might attack Snape in a moment...

"Then prove it! Master yourself!" spat Snape. "Control
your anger, 
discipline your mind! We shall try again! Get ready now! 
Legilimens!" – p.536

Snape did not "said" that last quote, he "spat" it.
Again, I think 
he became hysterical.


I also find this quote to be very hypocritical, since Snape, IMO is 
the person who can easily let his emotions take charge of him.




 


Dungrolin:
 huge snip

> My take on this:
I find Harry's insistence on dwelling on his anger peculiar. 
Fear is something I find much more difficult to control than anger
– possibly because external influences are the cause of the
feeling, but anger (although also dependent on external influences) 
 is more dependent upon my mood, and attitude, and I can master 
that.  In this, Harry has reactions opposite to mine, (he easily 
overcomes his fear, but not his anger) so perhaps that's why I
have little sympathy for his difficulties.  It would be interesting 
if the people who are on his side in this debate react similarly to 
him – have difficulty getting over anger, but less difficulty 
getting over fear.


Alla:

No, Dungrolin, I usually have more trouble overcoming my nervousness 
than anger, I just think that Snape did nothing to help Harry get 
rid of his as I tried to show, therefore I sympathise with Harry.


Dungrolin:
 
> I'm not sure how posters can argue that Snape hasn't told
> Harry how to practise.  Is it that bit in the first lesson, where 
> Harry says `you're not telling me how'?  Because
> immediately after that Snape *does* explain about ridding one's
> mind of emotion.


Alla: NO, he does not, not in my opinion, he just say empty your 
mind of th emotion he does not say how to do it.



>

Dungrolin:
And why does Harry insist that he'll never forgive Snape? 
Because of Snape's sneer when Harry told him `He's got
Padfoot at the place where it's hidden!'  Because Snape
goaded Sirius and implied Sirius was a coward.  No resentment about 
Snape not teaching him Occlumency *properly*, Harry takes the blame 
for not learning himself. However, after Harry takes the blame, he 
starts trying to blame Snape for everything, he does a U-turn and 
says Snape stopped the lessons, and accuses him of making it worse, 
making it easier for Voldy. DD doesn't reply to the accusations, but 
says he trusts Snape, and implies that the reason Snape stopped the 
lessons was that he couldn't overcome his feelings about James. - No 
mention of Snape not teaching Occlumency properly *while the lessons 
were going on*.  



Alla:


Nope, blaming him for Sirius death is only aprt of the problem as 
you said yourself, Harry also tells Dumbledore that he felt worse 
after the lessons and he INDEED felt worse. Remember this?

"... Harry, are you sure  you're all right?"
For Harry just run both his hands hard over his forehead as though 
trying to iron it.
"yeah... fine.. he said, lowering his hands, which were 
trembling. "I just feel a bit... I don't like Occlumency much..."

"I expect anyone would feel shaky if they 'd had their mind attacked 
over and over again," said Hermione sympathetically" - p.540

And this:

"He took deep breaths, willing himself not to vomit all over Ron.
...

Harry nodded without any conviction and slumped back on his pillows, 
aching all over from having fallen to the floor so often that 
evening, his scar still pricking painfully. He could not help 
feeling  that his first foray i8nto occlumency had weakened his 
mind's resistance rather than strenthening it, and he wondered, with 
a feeling of great trepidiation, what ahd happened to make Lord 
Voldemort the happiest he had been in fourteen years" - p.542.


Here is my question to you. If indeed feeling worse after the lesson 
is unavolidable side effect, which we have no proof of, why, oh why 
did Snape not WARNED Harry that he WILL feel worse?

Don't you think it would help harry to trust Snape a bit more? To me 
this is a great proof of Snape being a sadist towards Harry. If he 
knew how Harry would feel, but did nothing about it, or at least 
told Harry to take it easy for this day, then yes, he IS responsible 
in my opinion.






Dungrolin:
 
> My biggest problem with the idea that Snape didn't teach Harry 
> Occlumency properly, is Snape's motivation.  Why on earth should
> he deliberately omit vital instructions?  Nobody (IIRC) seems to 
> have suggested a plausible motivation – but I doubt that any
will
> go as far as postulating ESE!Snape either.


Alla:

Eh? Why not? For the record, I don't believe in ESE! Snape, but 
quite strong case can be put together in favor of ESE!Snape, I think.

Actually, I think I agree with Lupinlore, I don't think that Snape 
will deliberately betray the Order, but he may let hsi emotions rile 
up again and by accidentdo somethign which will put Order in danger.
If only to make Harry's suspicions about Snape be correct even for a 
short perioud of time.



Dungrolin:


snip.

>> So don't blame it all on Snape, particularly when DD and Harry
> have both accepted the blame for their various mistakes.
>

Alla:

Sorry, but may I continue blame A LOT of it on Snape, please? :o)

But don't worry I blame Dumbledore too and even Harry,although to 
lesser extent.


P.S. I want to apologise. I know that my post could have been a 
little less fragmental, but I cannot come up with the idea of how to 
make it better right now.

If you found anything to be not clear, please feel free to ask me to 
clarify. :o)