Snape the spy

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 88076

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "as_ziggy" <as_ziggy at y...> wrote:
> Hello to all at HP for Grownups,
> 

bboy_mn:

Welcome, welcome, welcome; always nice to have new blood, and new
ideas and opinions. Many newcomers are worried that they might bring
up a subject that has all ready been covered. Not to worry, not to
worry. Everything has already been discussed, (well, almost
everything), but we've never let that stop us from discussing them again. 

Frequently, it's the old often discussed subjects that spawn the
longest threads. For example, the 'Snape is a Vampire' idea has been
re-awakened, and despite having been discussed many times before, the
thread has been running for days with many posts per day on the subject.

So, really, we would love to hear anything you have to say on any
subject even if you disagree with the common beliefs, actually
*especially* if you disagree. Conversation where everyone is in
agreement can be so boring; nothing like contradicting ideas to get
the adrenaline flowing.



> Anna:

> ...edited...
> 
> I read a few fanfics in which Snape not only had spied for
> Dumbledore but is still spying (up until Voldemort's defeat or other
> circumstances where Snape's secret has to be exposed).  I began to 
> wonder at the plausibility of it because I think there are a few 
> clues that Voldemort might have picked up on that Snape was loyal to 
> Dumbledore and not himself.
> 
> One clue occurs in the Philosopher's Stone.  Wouldn't Voldemort have 
> suspected that Snape may have been loyal to the other side when 
> Snape was constantly going out of his way to stop Quirrel from 
> getting the stone?  
> 

bboy_mn:

The only problem here is that Quirrel and Voldemort chose not to
reveal Voldemort's presents or his plan. Snape had no way of knowing
that he was acting against Voldemort. 

As far as Snape knew, all he was doing was acting against some sneaky,
sniveling, greedy, trecherous Defense Against Dark Arts teacher.
Voldemort certainly can't expect Snape to act based on information he
doesn't have. 

I can see why Voldemort didn't reveal himself. He was weak and
helpless, and in no position to exert power over anyone. Like many
other Death Eaters, Voldemort controlled Quirrel by appealing to his
greed and desire for power. Certainly, Voldemort knows Snape well
enough to know that he is very strong. intelligent, and not easily
manipulated. So he would never have approached Snape until Voldemort
was sure of his own power and abilities once again.


> Anna continues:
> Another clue would be that Snape did not attend the Death Eater 
> meeting in GoF when Voldemort returned and broke his followers out
> of Azkaban. Missing such an important meeting, I imagine, would be 
> a huge offence and something that Voldemort noticed and should 
> probably be suspicious about.
>

bboy_mn:

Well, it will come as no surprise to anyone that I have a /theory/ on
this subject. First, in the graveyard scene, in my opinion, Voldemort
expresses an element of doubt about Snape when he used the word
'believe' as in '...we have six missing Death Eaters. ...One, who I
*believe* has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...'. If
he had said '...one who has left me forever...' that would seem
absolute, but when he says 'who I /believe/ has left me forever..' in
my mind the implies and element of uncertainty, like saying '...one
who I think might have left me forever...'. So at this stage, I don't
think Voldemort really knows what to make of Snape.

Now to my theory, what if, way back 14 years ago, Voldemort sent Snape
to Dumbledore with some important information Snape could use to get
into Dumbledore's good graces? That way Snape could claim to have seen
the light and offer to spy for Dumbledore against Voldemort, but, in
Voldemort's mind, Snape would really only pretend to be on the good
side, and would secretly really be spying for Voldemort against
Dumbledore; a double secret agent. 

Now some event occurred, many speculate that Snape had a thing for
Lily and when it became apparent that Voldemort not only had the
inclination to kill the Potters, but also, thanks to Wormtail, he now
had the opportunity to kill them. So Snape turns against Voldemort,
and informs Dumbledore that there is an immediate risk to James, Lily,
and Harry.

Now Snape is a triple agent; he is pretending to spy for Dumbledore
while he pretends to spy for Voldemort while he has really joined the
good side and is actually spying for Dumbledore although Voldemort
still thinks Snape is only pretending. Oh what a tangled web we weave
when first we practice to deceive. 

Can I prove this? Nope! But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
This explains how Snape could spend so many years with Dumbledore and
still be taken back by Voldemort. Because Voldemort was actually the
one who sent Snape to work as a spy for Dumbledore. 

This also allows some degree of betrayal of each side. In order to
remain an effective double (triple?) agent status, at some point, you
have to betray each side in order to stay on the good side of the
other. Both sides therefore acknowledge and accept that Snape will
have to do his best to appear to be working against each and for the
other.

This theory explains how it would be possible for Snape to approach
Voldemort. Although, most of us believe that Snape originally send
Malfoy to speak on his behalf, and assure Voldemort that Snape was
only playing the role of the good spy in staying close to Dumbledore.
Malfoy could certainly vouche for the fact that Snape has little love
for muggles, the Ministry, Dumbledore, or Harry, and do so in all
honesty which would prevent Voldemort from catching either Snape or
Malfoy in a lie. 

Once Snape convinced Voldemort that he really hadn't joined the good
side, that all he was doing was continuing his role as a spy, he would
be accepted back into the DE's.

Don't get me wrong, Voldemort didn't throw a Tea and Cake party to
welcome Snape back. I suspect that Snape endure many Cruciatus Pain
Curses as a reminder from Voldemort that the cost of true betrayal is
extremely, painfully, and ultimately deadly high.

Really, I can't imagine any other combination of events that would
allow Snape to continue working for both sides. 


> Anna continues: 
> In any case any suspicion on Voldemort's part should have made it 
> impossible for Snape to continue to spy for the Order.  I think the 
> spying would have ended with Voldemort's first fall.  If Snape did 
> any spying after that it would probably only be on the Death Eaters 
> who didn't get tossed in Azkaban and who still believed he was one
> of them.
> 
> So now I'm wondering what you all think about Snape's spying career.  
> Speak out =)
> 
> Anna


bboy_mn:

We know Snape has maintained a friendship with Lucius Malfoy over all
the year between Voldemort's downfall and the present. We also know
that Lucius hasn't abandon the 'dark' ways even though he maintains a
respectable public front. 

I think Snape partly maintained this friendship because he does share
some common beliefs with Malfoy and the pure-bloods, but also because
Malfoy was probably one of the most intelligent DE's, and would
certainly be the one that Voldemort would contact first upon his
return, and Malfoy would be the one that Voldemort trusted and relied
on upon his return. 

Malfoy is certainly obedient, but he is not the brainless sniveling
bootlicker that the other DE's are. Voldemort can trust Malfoy to act
with some degree of intelligence and independant thought. Although,
since the slightest failure results in torture, even the most
intelligent DE follows Voldemort's orders to the letter, that way,
it's always the plan that failed and not the DE's themselves. I'm sure
they still get tortured though which really doesn't help Voldemort
cause at all. That's why all tyrants are doomed to failure.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn