Harry and special abilities (was Occlumency and Shield Charm)

[Doriane]

No: HPFGUIDX 89460

 
Hitomi said :

> Harry is incredibly strong-willed, and I think it ignorant of 
> readers, who don't believe Harry has special abilities. 

Del answers :

I believe that Harry has qualities. Everyone does. He's strong-
willed, for sure. Or pig-headed, as you choose ;-) And he has some 
special abilities, like flying or resisting the Imperius Curse. But I 
don't believe he's the only one to possess those abilities. This 
unique combination, yes, but not those abilities in themselves.

Hitomi :

> The kid is going to have to defeat Lord Voldemort, something no 
> other wizard can do.  The kid has special  abilities, we just are 
> not entirely sure what they are yet

Del answers :

Yes, but you see, if it so happened that Harry could defeat LV *only* 
because of some special ability that only he has, then I'd be 
mightily disappointed. As Frost put it :

> If he were so specially gifted, as you seem to see him, I 
> would be bored.  How many times have I read about perfect 
> characters, or characters  who "aren't perfect" but are still 
> somehow always in the right.  Wonderfully gifted characters don't 
> come up against real struggles; certainly not ones I can identify 
> with.  I find amazing beauty in a character who is no more gifted 
> than those around him, and yet he strives and through his 
> struggles, becomes something more.  I think Harry does have some 
> gifts and talents, but no more than other people.  I would hate for 
> him to become a "ubercharicter."  The type who runs into a battle 
> and then you know that the battle will be won.  I've already read 
> that story, a thousand times.  It's boring. Worthless. 

I agree, I couldn't agree more !!!

Hitomi :

> And I'm going to keep repeating this quote in my signature, because 
> the Harry-bashing is annoying me to death. 

Del retorts :

And all the Harry-worshipping annoys me too. I don't want an idol, I 
want a role-model. I don't want a perfect hero, I want a flawed human 
being who gives his best.

Hitomi :

> Why on earth are you reading a series named after him, if you don't 
> like him?

Del :

Huh ? What has that got to do with anything ? A title is just that, a 
title. Harry is the main character, I agree, but nowhere have I ever 
read that mains characters should be idolised. In fact, I have a 
strong tendency to dislike main characters because they are way too 
often over-perfect. I'm generally more attracted to the sidekicks, 
the minor characters, the ones that have to have faults so that the 
main character looks even more perfect.
In our case, I'm much more interested in Hermione and Neville, Sirius 
and Lupin, even Peter and Bella, than in Harry.

Hitomi :

>(Not to mention, how can you not love Harry?  His character is 
> beyond beautiful.)

Del answers :

Bof. I don't share your feelings, sorry. Harry is a nice character 
all right, and a *very* interesting one, but I'm definitely not head-
over-heels about him. Hermione, yes. Harry, no.

Frost said :

>  I can only speak for myself, and I will.  Harry may be a beautiful 
> character, but it is because he is flawed.  As an artist,  I know 
> that while most people tend to like things that are perfectly 
> symmetrical, it is that which is unsymmetrical that is more 
> interesting, and more worth your time to wrestle with.

Del answers :

First of all, I'd like to thank you Frost for that fantastic post in 
my defence and in the defence of all those who do not worship Harry. 
I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said, even if I don't 
like Harry as much as you do.
And as a fellow artist (only amateur, alas !), I'll add that I find 
perfection sterile and forbidding. It doesn't leave any place for 
progress, and aiming for it is the surest way to end up very unhappy 
with whatever has been accomplished, no matter how good.

Frost :

>  I think its fair for us to be frustrated with Harry. JKR has 
> managed to make him very human, very real.  And to say that he is 
> special because he has extra talent just steals that away.  

Del answers :

Exactly ! I just wish people didn't try and turn Harry into 
something "more" than just a human boy. He's just a human boy with 
his very own load of problems and talents. The only thing that's 
*really* out of the ordinary about him is his mission : to vanquish 
LV. Which is precisely why so many of us are ready to believe that 
maybe he isn't the Prophecy Boy : because it doesn't fit in with how 
normal he is otherwise.

Frost said :

> Most of all, the Harry bashing that you complain about is in a way, 
> some of the greatest praise JKR can get.  They aren't complaining 
> about how poorly Harry was written. They are complaining about him 
> as though he were real; a person that they know and want to kick 
> the crap out of for being a brat. (ok, maybe that is a 
> little strong, but you get my point.)  

Del answers :

Absolutely. That's precisely because he's written so well, because I 
can understand him so well, because I can relate to him so well, that 
I don't want people to idolise him. Because it would mean I've got it 
all wrong somehow. I mean, I'm not a hero, I'm not a superwoman, and 
still I feel like I understand Harry. I have sympathy and compassion 
for the human boy Harry. But if someone tells me that he's in fact a 
superhuman, well, I'll stop being able to relate to him, because 
since it's not the way I see him, I must obviously have read him 
completely wrong all the way, and I in fact don't know him at all. 
And I can't relate to someone I don't know.

Back to Hitomi :

> I just meant that as human and ordinary as Harry is, there are 
> things about him that are special, and I was replying to a 
> hypothetical reader that would refrain from realizing or mentioning 
> that, not to an actual reader on this list.

Del answers :

Just because I don't mention that Harry has qualities doesn't mean I 
don't believe it. But when I'm talking about one of his faults, I 
don't see the point of talking about his qualities.
And again, yes Harry is special, but no more than anyone else. 
Everyone is special in some way, we just happen to know more about 
Harry, that's all. I mean, Hermione taught herself NEWT-level spells, 
but nobody here goes to great length to convince everyone else that 
Hermione is just ten cuts above everyone of us. So yes Harry has 
great qualities, but that doesn't mean he's "better" than everyone 
else.

Hitomi :

> Another point I want to clarify, because I never made it clear, and 
> it seems to have given the wrong impression: I never said I thought 
> Harry was perfect.  I don't.  Far from.  He's actually astoundingly 
> ordinary.  Almost... uniquely ordinary.

Del answers :

But they are ALL uniquely ordinary, that's precisely the beauty of 
those books ! All of them : Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, etc... OK, a 
few of them are too cartoonish (Draco, Crabbe and Goyle, etc...), but 
most of the main characters are so unique and yet so ordinary, it's 
amazing !

Hitomi :

> And what I meant by beautiful was loving, giving, compassionate - 
> the things we all strive for in our character development.

Del answers :

OK, that's one point where we'll have to agree to disagree. Harry 
never struck me as so incredibly loving and compassionate. He's 
definitely not the kind who makes me feel comfortable right away, as 
loving and compassionate people do. And I probably couldn't even be 
his friend, because he's so demanding and so harsh with them 
sometimes, I would get my feelings bruised too easily. When I read 
the books, I'm way too often made to feel uncomfortable by Harry's 
thoughts and actions to find him loving and compassionate.

Hitomi :

> The bashing I tire of is usually in reference to Harry's using the 
> Cruciatus curse at the end of Book 5, those who have stated he is 
> ruthless, completely immature, hateful, etc.  I've already posted 
> my thoughts on said argument, so I will not be redundant and 
> reiterate them.  Harry is just a beautifully loving person.

Del answers :

Can't you see ? We just have a different view of Harry. You see him 
as a loving person, I don't. I see him as someone who is dangerously 
giving in to his bad side, you don't. I guess it all depends on our 
personal histories and sensitivities. We're discussing *feelings* 
here, not facts, so of course we can't get anywhere ! 

Hitomi said :

> It's what makes his character so compassionate to begin with, that 
> understanding of the imperfection in himself and others.

Del answers :

I guess we read what we want in book characters. I haven't read that 
in Harry.

Hitomi said :

> He has special abilities, he has talent, the Sorting Hat made that 
> clear in Book 1.  I don't mean he's invincible, not at all, I just 
> mean he has his talents as we all do, and again, the posts I have 
> become frustrated over are the ones that failed to mention that 
> fact.

Del answers :

And I have become frustrated at the posts that fail to mention that 
Harry is a human being with flaws, that mention only his qualities 
and talents, or even worse : that want to deny his flaws, because of 
his qualities !?

Hitomi :

> I was referring to those who say he is hateful, ruthless, etc.  
> That just isn't Harry.

Del answers :

That just isn't YOUR Harry. We all have our own idea of who and what 
Harry is. We all have our own way to react to Harry's personality. 
Some would be attracted to him, others would be repelled. I would be 
repelled by someone who abuses his friends the way he does in OoP, no 
matter the reason. I couldn't trust a so-called friend who let me 
down for a *broom*, even though I had only his safety in mind. Just a 
few examples of why Harry's personality doesn't appeal to me.

Hitomi :

> I think the character Harry has always reminded me most of, in his 
> beauty, heroism, and extreme imperfection, (and perhaps becuase we 
> read him as a child, too) is Ender Wiggin (the Ender series by 
> Orson Scott Card).  Though who are meant to lead and protect are 
> the ones who believe they are most undeserving.

> "I'm not one to despise other people for their sins.  I haven't 
> found one yet, that I didn't say inside myself, I've done worse 
> than this" (Ender from Speaker for the Dead, Orson Scott Card 350).
> 
> "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him 
> well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love 
> him.  I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what 
> they want, what they believe, and not love them the way the love 
> themselves" 
> (Ender from Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card 238).

Del answers :

I don't think we've seen Harry get there yet. He's very far from it 
still. He can't even figure Draco out, let alone Pettigrew, Bellatrix 
or LV ! As for loving them...

One last example : when I saw "X-Men the Movie", I immediately was 
drawn to Wolverine, not Scott. Wolverine is the one who is fighting 
to do good, he's the one who has flaws and has to overcome them to 
work for the general good. Scott, OTOH, seems to be *born* "good", he 
doesn't seem to have any internal conflict or whatever, he never had 
a choice but to be good, he never had to make a conscious decision to 
become an X-Men. He's flat, he's boring, while Wolverine is exciting. 
I love my Wolverine-Harry, I'd be bored to death with a Scott-Harry.

Del