Ginny Weasley, Neville, thestrals and memory charms

[elfundeb2]

No: HPFGUIDX 89517

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shrijnana" 
<dh.shrijnana at v...> wrote:
> I've had a few questions about Ginny Weasley... [snip]
> 
> First, in POA she is deeply affected by the dementors on the train 
to
> Hogwarts, as is Neville. At first I thought that might be due to 
her
> experience with Tom Riddle in COS, but after reading OotP I'm not 
so
> sure. She tells Harry that she cannot remember the times she was
> possesed by LV at all. "When he did it to me I couldn't remember 
what
> I'd been doing for hours at a time. (pg. 500 US edition). Would the
> dementors be able to bring up those unconscious memories?
 
I think those are exactly the memories that the dementor dredged up, 
but I¡¦m not convinced she had full access to them.  She 
looked ¡§almost as bad as Harry felt¡¨ but earlier in the scene her 
reaction is described exactly the same as Neville¡¦s ¡V both are said 
to be ¡§very pale¡¨ ¡V clearly more affected than Ron and Hermione but 
less than Harry.   I think this is significant, because Ginny¡¦s 
arrival in the compartment just in time for the Dementor seems so 
awkward that I believe she was placed there for the very purpose of 
comparing her reaction with the others¡¦.  As you point out, Ginny 
has little or no conscious memory of her possession, so I think the 
clue in this scene, in combination with the other scene you¡¦ve 
brought up, relates to Neville.

> But what really makes me wonder about her is her reaction to the 
stone
> archway in the deparment of mysteries. Ron and Hermione have no
> noticable reaction to it. Harry and Luna both hear voices behind 
the
> veil, and Neville and Ginny are entranced by it. 
> 
> "On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparantly
> entranced, at the veils too. Without speaking, Hermione took hold 
of
> Ginny's arm, Ron Neville's, and they marched them firmly back to 
the
> lowest stone bench..." (Pg. 775, US edition)
> 
> At the end of OotP Luna refers to the voices behind the veil as 
those
> of loved ones who have died. Harry, Neville, and Luna all have seen
> people die - they can all see the thestrals - and all have loved 
ones
> who have died. As far as we know, Ron and Hermione haven't. But 
what
> about Ginny? Why is she entranced by the veil?
 
I believe that the characters were drawn to the veil for one of two 
reasons:  either a loved one has died (Harry and Luna, who can hear 
the voices and have lost parents), or because they have personally 
had a close encounter with death (Ginny and Harry, who are entranced 
by the veil).   Neville is also entranced, leading me to believe he 
has had a near-death experience. 

But does Neville remember it?  Which brings me to this point that 
Rachel brought up a day or two ago:

>    I might be making something out of nothing here but even on 
first 
> reading of the book I had some doubt as to the reason Neville gave 
> for being able to see the thestrals. When Umbridge asks Neville 
> "Whom did you see die?", he replies, "My...my grandad." (Chapter 
21, 
„« US version pg 449).  [snip]

That answer *does* seem a bit contrived, doesn¡¦t it?  Which is not 
Neville¡¦s usual modus operandi.

>    I think there's a chance that the death that Neville 
experienced 
> in order to make him capable of seeing the thestrals may not 
really 
> be his grandad. A memory charm is capable of wiping someone's 
memory 
> but it can't wipe away the fact that the experience itself 
occurred 
> which would explain why Neville is still able to see the thestrals.

I think so, too. And putting all of these pieces together, I reach 
the conclusion that Neville has both seen death *and* had a near-
death experience himself.  Yet his parents aren¡¦t dead, and Neville 
wasn¡¦t affected by the dementors like Harry was.  Which suggests 
that Neville is suffering the effects of a memory charm.   

The possible near-death that immediately comes to mind is that 
Voldemort somehow tried to kill Neville, too, and marked him as he 
marked Harry.  (Neville, like Harry, could handle the prophecy.)  
This would allow for a lot of much more interesting possibilities as 
to how the prophecy might play out.  Really, this makes sense; there 
has to be more to the events the prophecy has foretold than a final 
showdown between Harry and Voldemort.  Not only would it be boring, 
JKR has already done it.

On the other hand, it¡¦s always possible that the near-death 
experience is nothing more than witnessing his parents¡¦ torture, or 
maybe absorbing a bit of it himself.

What the speculation doesn¡¦t answer, though, is who would have given 
Neville a memory charm and why.  I think Neville¡¦s parents¡¦ insanity 
is part of this same mystery.  The pieces we have now just don¡¦t add 
up.  Why were the Longbottoms left alive?  Surely their torturers 
can¡¦t have assumed that they would be rendered permanently insane 
from a little Crucio.  There¡¦s no evidence elsewhere in the books to 
suggest that this was a known effect of the curse.  Do we *really* 
know that Cruciatus caused their insanity?   

And why aren¡¦t they getting better?  If intensive remedial potions 
and charms can produce improvement in Gilderoy Lockhart, surely they 
would help wizards as talented as the Longbottoms.  

One of my old pre-OOP theories was that it was an overwrought memory 
charm that caused Frank and Alice Longbottom to lose their sanity.  
The reappearance of Lockhart on the same ward where they¡¦re 
imprisoned seems to reinforce that theory.  My alternative theory 
was that the Longbottoms lost their sanity after being tortured (as 
Bertha Jorkins was) in order to break through a memory charm placed 
on them earlier, and that like Bertha¡¦s, their ¡§minds and bodies 
were damaged beyond repair.¡¨   Maybe the Lestranges extracted this 
information (though I can¡¦t figure out why the Longbottoms would 
have already been memory charmed), or maybe someone in the 
Department of Magical Law Enforcement did it in order to learn the 
identities of the Longbottoms¡¦ torturers and satisfy the public¡¦s 
demand for convictions.  In the latter case, it would be prudent to 
cast the charm on Neville as well, to erase his memory of his 
parents after the torture.  And if the DMLE was responsible, they 
would have good reason to be continuing to cover up, which would 
explain why the Longbottoms aren¡¦t getting any better.

Then there¡¦s Gran.  Why is she so keen to revere her son¡¦s memory 
that she destroys her grandson¡¦s self-confidence in the process?   I 
used to think she was in cahoots with the Lestranges and denigrated 
Neville¡¦s talent in order to deflect suspicion about the reason for 
Neville¡¦s poor memory.  Gran¡¦s support for Harry and cancellation of 
her subscription to the Daily Prophet seems to put that bit of 
speculation in the dustbin.  A lot of other people used to believe 
she had put the charm on Neville to protect him from the memories.  
This is hard to square with the fact that Neville seems to know all 
the details about his parents¡¦ torture, including the identity of 
the perpetrators.   But what if Gran knows about the prophecy and 
wanted to excise any memory that Neville had been marked?  What if 
she did it really badly?  Yup, she'd need to cover it up.

Ok, I guess that¡¦s enough mischief for today.

Debbie