Ginny Weasley, Neville, thestrals and memory charms

[Hitomi]

No: HPFGUIDX 89536

elfundeb wrote:  
> I believe that the characters were drawn to the veil for one of 
two 
> reasons:  either a loved one has died (Harry and Luna, who can 
hear 
> the voices and have lost parents), or because they have personally 
> had a close encounter with death (Ginny and Harry, who are 
entranced 
> by the veil).   Neville is also entranced, leading me to believe 
he 
> has had a near-death experience.

Hitomi:
I'm not arguing with most of your points, because you brought up 
some good ones, but Neville can see thestrals because he saw his 
grandfather die (according to what he says).  He's in the same 
category as Luna, and we don't know if he has ever had a near-death 
experience, but he has seen death, so he would be attracted by the 
veil regardless, by your theory, which I rather liked, though I 
don't think it necessarily has to be the death of a loved one.  
Probably just if you've seen death.  Harry didn't exactly love 
Cedric, just respected him, though I guess that could be seen as a 
form of love, if you want to get technical.  Though I still think 
it's probably if you've seen anyone die, loved one or not.  Death, 
no matter who it is, will always be horrific, at least to an extent.


elfundeb wrote:
> But does Neville remember it?  Which brings me to this point that 
> Rachel brought up a day or two ago:
> 
> >    I might be making something out of nothing here but even on 
> first 
> > reading of the book I had some doubt as to the reason Neville 
gave 
> > for being able to see the thestrals. When Umbridge asks Neville 
> > "Whom did you see die?", he replies, "My...my grandad." (Chapter 
> 21, 
> „« US version pg 449).  [snip]
> 
> That answer *does* seem a bit contrived, doesn¡¦t it?  Which is 
not 
> Neville¡¦s usual modus operandi.

Hitomi:
I didn't see his answer as contrived, more as hesitant, and anxious, 
which is VERY Neville.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't 
know if we're reading too much into this is all.  What we do know is 
that Neville has seen death, not that he has had a near-death 
experience.  Oh, and JKR said in the Royal Albert Hall interview, in 
order to view the thestrals, that you have to have had seen the 
death and let it sink in a bit, so I would say it's a safe bet that 
Neville remembers whoever he saw die, if it happens to not be his 
grandfather, though personally, I think it probably was.


elfundeb wrote: 
> I think so, too. And putting all of these pieces together, I reach 
> the conclusion that Neville has both seen death *and* had a near-
> death experience himself.  Yet his parents aren¡¦t dead, and 
Neville 
> wasn¡¦t affected by the dementors like Harry was.  Which suggests 
> that Neville is suffering the effects of a memory charm.

Hitomi:
Again, you have to have had let the death sink in, so I don't know 
about all this.  Galadriel Waters came up with that memory charm 
theory (at least, that's where I first heard it), but I'm not 
entirely sure I buy it.  But she does have proof, just as we have 
proof to discredit it.  We'll just have to wait for the next book, I 
suppose.   


elfundeb wrote:
> The possible near-death that immediately comes to mind is that 
> Voldemort somehow tried to kill Neville, too, and marked him as he 
> marked Harry.  (Neville, like Harry, could handle the prophecy.)  
> This would allow for a lot of much more interesting possibilities 
as 
> to how the prophecy might play out.  Really, this makes sense; 
there 
> has to be more to the events the prophecy has foretold than a 
final 
> showdown between Harry and Voldemort.  Not only would it be 
boring, 
> JKR has already done it.

Hitomi:
This didn't make sense.  When would LV have gotten to Neville, and 
where were his parents?  (and wouldn't DD know about this?)  That, 
and Neville needs to have SEEN a DEATH in order to see the 
thestrals.  And yes, Neville could handle the prophecy, but that has 
nothing to do with it.  Anyone could handle the prophecy, once LV or 
Harry lifted it off the shelf, which is why Lucius and Bellatrix 
keep asking for it.  Do we know if Neville could have picked it up?  
No, but I do think he would have gone mad if he had.  Check out this 
link on MuggleNet.com, as to why Harry is *the One*, and not 
Neville.  I'm not saying Neville doesn't have an important role to 
play, far from, but there can only be ONE, if the prophecy is true.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt02.shtml

Maline has covered everything much more eloquently than I could.  
And PLEASE take the time to read this before you contradict me, I 
completely understand if you don't agree with me, but this editorial 
states COMPLETELY where I stand from, besides which I was soon going 
to post my own rant on the subject concerning the prophecy.  And 
giving the link also saves bandwidth :)


elfundeb wrote: 
> On the other hand, it¡¦s always possible that the near-death 
> experience is nothing more than witnessing his parents¡¦ torture, 
or 
> maybe absorbing a bit of it himself.
> 
> What the speculation doesn¡¦t answer, though, is who would have 
given 
> Neville a memory charm and why.  I think Neville¡¦s parents¡¦ 
insanity 
> is part of this same mystery.  The pieces we have now just don¡¦t 
add 
> up.  Why were the Longbottoms left alive?  Surely their torturers 
> can¡¦t have assumed that they would be rendered permanently insane 
> from a little Crucio.  There¡¦s no evidence elsewhere in the books 
to 
> suggest that this was a known effect of the curse.  Do we *really* 
> know that Cruciatus caused their insanity? 

Hitomi:
I agree, we don't know enough about what happened to Neville's 
parents, such as where Neville was, but we can assume the Curse 
caused their insanity pretty safely.  Bellatrix admits as much 
towards the end of Book 5, when threatening Neville, and DD 
originally told Harry that was the cause, so if DD believe the Curse 
can cause insanity, it probably can.  And besides, any form of 
torture, apparently that bad, can probably cause insanity if used 
long enough, neh?
  

elfundeb wrote: 
> And why aren¡¦t they getting better?  If intensive remedial 
potions 
> and charms can produce improvement in Gilderoy Lockhart, surely 
they 
> would help wizards as talented as the Longbottoms.  
<big snip>

Hitomi:
Again, this is a theory I first heard from Galadriel Waters.  We 
don't know this for sure, though there might be something up with 
those wrappers Neville's mum is handing him.  And Gilderoy doesn't 
seem to be much better, in my opinion.  Still has no real idea who 
he is.  I'm not throwing the "Evil St.Mungo's" theory out the 
window, but I think we're assuming things we don't have enough proof 
of.  Though again, there could be some truth to it.  Waiting until 
Book 6...


elfundeb wrote: 
> Then there¡¦s Gran.  Why is she so keen to revere her son¡¦s 
memory 
> that she destroys her grandson¡¦s self-confidence in the 
process?   I 
> used to think she was in cahoots with the Lestranges and 
denigrated 
> Neville¡¦s talent in order to deflect suspicion about the reason 
for 
> Neville¡¦s poor memory.  Gran¡¦s support for Harry and 
cancellation of 
> her subscription to the Daily Prophet seems to put that bit of 
> speculation in the dustbin.  A lot of other people used to believe 
> she had put the charm on Neville to protect him from the 
memories.  
> This is hard to square with the fact that Neville seems to know 
all 
> the details about his parents¡¦ torture, including the identity of 
> the perpetrators.   But what if Gran knows about the prophecy and 
> wanted to excise any memory that Neville had been marked?  What if 
> she did it really badly?  Yup, she'd need to cover it up.

Hitomi:
Ok, I think this is WAY pushing it.  Gran just might be like that, 
you know, like some fathers who constantly compare one son who is 
good at say, football, to one who isn't.  Neville probably just 
doesn't live up to her expectations, he's not the most bold person 
alive.  Neville has never striked me as someone who would have been 
very secure to begin with.  And if you want to compare him to Harry, 
Harry was torn down his entire life, neglected, verbally abused, at 
home and school, and he had NO real friends or loving family.  
Neville's situation wasn't quite as severe, and he did have family 
who loved him, just probably didn't do the best job of showing it.  
And Harry has come out more... secure, courageous?  Those aren't the 
words I'm looking for, but he is definitely more of the "hero-
figure" than Neville, he's done things the last five years that 
would probably have killed Neville.  I'm NOT saying Neville is 
cowardly, I just think he is more of an insecure person, which IS 
NOT a weakness, just a difference in people.

Getting back on track, I don't think Gran is in cahoots with 
anybody.  Again, I could be wrong, but we have no real proof of 
that, and from what Neville has said, she seems to support DD and 
Harry.  I just think we're starting to pull theories out of the 
air.  And Neville, to our knowledge, knows as much about his 
parents' torture as DD or Harry.  We don't know if he was there or 
not, though he might have been, but he would have only been two-
years-old when it happened.  The only thing that could pull that 
memory up would be a Dementor; there wouldn't have been a need for a 
memory charm when he was two, if such were the case.

Wow, that was long.  But thanks, Deb, your post has made me think. :)

~ Hitomi