[HPforGrownups] Neville's Role (WAS: Ginny Weasley, Neville, thestrals and memory charms

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 89663

This post got *way* longer than I intended.  I started by just responding to replies to my Neville memory charm speculation, and suddenly found myself writing about *why* I like the theory that Neville has been marked and then memory charmed. 

Hitomi wrote:

> I'm not arguing with most of your points, because you brought up 
> some good ones, but Neville can see thestrals because he saw his 
> grandfather die (according to what he says).  

I didn't necessarily mean to suggest that he didn't see his grandfather die (so perhaps "contrived" was a bad word choice).  But there's something about the way he says it that implied to me at least that he didn't want to talk about his experience with death, or perhaps that he doesn't have any personal recollection of this experience, which is part of what led me down the path to figure out whether this is a clue and why.  Perhaps Neville's hesitation is an attempt on his part to grope for a memory of an event he has no knowledge of except for third-party accounts.

He's in the same 
> category as Luna, and we don't know if he has ever had a near-death 
> experience, but he has seen death, so he would be attracted by the 
> veil regardless, by your theory, which I rather liked, though I 
> don't think it necessarily has to be the death of a loved one.

True, there's no evidence that Luna has had a near-death experience, but it's not suggested that she needed to be dragged away from the veil, as Harry, Ginny and Neville were.  Since attempts have been made on Harry's and Ginny's lives (but not Luna's, as far as we know), I thought that might be a clue to Neville's past as well, especially since we don't know if Ginny has any brush with death other than the Chamber of Secrets.  

> Probably just if you've seen death.  Harry didn't exactly love 
> Cedric, just respected him, though I guess that could be seen as a 
> form of love, if you want to get technical.  

Actually, I was thinking of Lily's death, which he didn't actually see but whose horror he experienced when the Dementors brought out that memory.  Harry's loss parallels Luna's loss, since both have experienced the death of their mothers.

> Hitomi:
> I agree, we don't know enough about what happened to Neville's 
> parents, such as where Neville was, but we can assume the Curse 
> caused their insanity pretty safely.  Bellatrix admits as much 
> towards the end of Book 5, when threatening Neville, and DD 
> originally told Harry that was the cause, so if DD believe the Curse 
> can cause insanity, it probably can.  And besides, any form of 
> torture, apparently that bad, can probably cause insanity if used 
> long enough, neh?
>   
She may assume that it caused their insanity, but if the Ministry was responsible, she would never know.  There *are* lawless people at the Ministry (Umbridge, for example) who hurt others to achieve their own ends, so I wouldn't put it past them.  Or, if she was using the Cruciatus Curse, it might have been an attempt to break through an existing memory charm, as Naama suggested, which makes a lot of sense since Voldemort used torture to break through Bertha Jorkins' memory charm.

Naama also suggested:

> However, we learn from the Lockhart incident that it is possible to 
> lay a memory charm on oneself. This ties in to my my pet theory 
> regarding the Longbottoms' insanity: that they laid a memory charm on 
> themselves, to protect whatever crucial piece of information the DEs 
> were desperate to recover regarding Voldemort. 

I have to say that I really like this idea.  Even though I'm partial to scenarios that involve nefarious deeds, especially by the Ministry, the possibility that they charmed themselves can't be discounted.  I do think, however, that the Longbottoms had more information than simply the location of Voldemort that they needed to hide.

I think it would be fittingly symbolic for the Longbottoms'  memory loss to have been caused by memory charms (whose morality has been debated on this list before) than if Cruciatus was the sole explanation.  I think the same about Neville, who is also memory-impaired.  And I think JKR likes this kind of symbolism.

Hitomi again:
> Gran just might be like that, 
> you know, like some fathers who constantly compare one son who is 
> good at say, football, to one who isn't.  Neville probably just 
> doesn't live up to her expectations, he's not the most bold person 
> alive.  

I agree that Neville doesn't live up to her expectations, but I have always found Gran to be an enigma.  She never does anything to help Neville to become more like his dad, just constantly berates him for his alleged failure to live up to her expectations.  Instead of giving Neville his father's wand as a constant reminder of what he should be, she should be nurturing Neville's abilities.  Instead, it's Harry and the DA that finally bring his talents to the surface.  Is she mourning her inability to recreate her lost son in Neville?  I really don't understand why she's undermined Neville's confidence the way she has; it just seems to make his nervousness a self-fulfilling prophecy.  That is, unless she wants to suppress his magical abilities in order to keep him alive.

Augustinapeach wrote:

> When the prophecy was made, DD didn't know whether it referred to 
> the Potters or the Longbottoms, so he probably put protections in 
> place for both families, meaning the Longbottoms (including Granny, 
> I guess) would know about the prophecy and its contents.  I just 
> wonder if Granny has told Neville.  She apparently discusses matters 
> related to LV with Neville, since he tells Harry in OoP, "My gran 
> says that's rubbish. . . .We believe Harry.  My gran's always said 
> You-Know-Who would come back one day.  She says if DD says he's 
> back, he's back" (p. 219).  And we know Neville is mighty good at 
> keeping a secret.
> 
If Gran did know about the prophecy, I have no doubt that she would have told Neville (probably right before telling him that if he had his father's talent, *he* could have saved the WW from Voldemort).  However, it seems unlikely that Gran was told unless she was in the Order, too, and there's no evidence of that, at least yet.  

> Hitomi:
> When would LV have gotten to Neville, and 
> where were his parents?  (and wouldn't DD know about this?)  

Clearly, if Voldemort marked Neville, his parents were not present, or Dumbledore would be aware of it.  However, Arcum suggested that Neville's grandfather did not die a peaceful death.  What if Neville's grandfather died at the hand of Voldemort and Neville was marked in that incident?  (I have read the Mugglenet essay you recommended, but it did assumed that Neville was marked by his parents' torture, and not by Voldemort in an event that has not yet been revealed to us.  I agree with the essay that the theory that the mark was left on Neville by his parents' torture doesn't fit the prophecy.)

I know my scenario doesn't jump out from the text.  I came up with it after I started wondering if the prophecy was about Neville instead of (or along with) Harry after all, because I (along with Amy Z and Lizvega) find it quite odd that JKR would raise the tantalizing suggestion that the prophecy might not have been about Harry after all (as Dumbledore tells us) and then allow Dumbledore's conclusion that there's no doubt that it was Harry to stand unchallenged.  One of the possibilities, which is not precluded by canon to date, is that the prophecy is about Neville and that in the final battle, Harry will be unable to defeat Voldemort and Neville will do it for him. 

And I do have a bit of canon to support that outcome.  In PoA, Harry has a dream the night before the Quidditch final I that I think will prove to be quite prophetic:

"First he dreamed that he had overslept, and that Wood was yelling, 'Where were you?  We had to use Neville instead!'"

It may not sound like much, but as Quidditch seems to be a metaphor for the struggle against Voldemort, the possibility of Neville replacing Harry is definitely worth noting.

I also think it works thematically.  He and Harry are clearly intended to be parallel characters, yet opposite in many ways.  They were born at the same time, to parents in the Order who defied Voldemort three times.  Yet Harry is The Boy Who Lived, while Neville tells Luna he is Nobody.     

On the surface they seem different, but Harry and Neville have had very different upbringings -- Harry knew nothing of his magical background or what his parents had done, while Neville must have been told constantly what was expected of him.  Harry's been slowly piecing together a fuller picture of his parents, and they're being fleshed out as individuals with real faults and past errors.  Neville seems to know a lot of information about the past, but it is filtered by Gran, so he gets a very biased perspective, in which his parents are great wizards, saints to the cause of Good, and Neville has no opportunity to learn otherwise.

For Neville to be the subject of the prophecy, he must have whatever power resides in the locked room at the DoM.  Whatever it is (and I haven't found the right word for it myself), whether it's love (in the agape sense), self-sacrifice, compassion, heart, doing the right thing instead of the easy thing, I think Neville definitely has it.
 
Both Harry and Neville are compassionate, as  Ginger points out:

> In GoF, 
> Harry feels sorry for Neville, and starts to see him in a different 
> light after he sees the penseive, and again in OoP when they meet at 
> St. Mungo's.  Neville shows genuine concern for Harry after Sirius 
> dies, crawling down the bleachers despite his cursed legs to offer 
> condolences.  
> 
They also have both shown a willingness to stand up for what they believe is right, and a willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.  Harry's speech in PS/SS, when he decides to go through the trapdoor, is evidence of that.  And Neville is willing to sacrifice himself in the DoM, telling Harry, telling him not to give the prophecy to the DEs even as Bellatrix prepares to torture him with the Cruciatus curse. Neville may have a mortal fear of Snape, but when things are tough, he makes the hard choice, not the easy one.    

For me, perhaps the most poignant moment in the entire series comes when Alice Longbottom gives Neville the gum wrapper.  Gran, in a "falsely cheery voice" treats Alice like a child, but Neville's response is simple yet eloquent: "Thanks, Mum."  I think this simple response say volumes about how Neville treats others.  He treats them with human dignity, which is the essence of love.  

Yup, I think Neville has what it takes.  And so does Harry, of course, though in the DoM, Harry chose to hand over the prophecy to protect Neville, while Neville urged him not to do it.  Harry made the same choice Dumbledore later laments having made about Harry -- he allowed his feelings for an individual to take precedence over the larger goal.  For Harry to have a chance to defeat Voldemort, he'll have to make some choices that are harder than any of the ones he has made to date.  

Lastly, I just bought a volume of Emily Dickinson's verse, and this one reminded me of Neville and Harry:

"I'm nobody!  Who are you?
Are you nobody too?
Then there's a pair of us -- don't tell!
They'd banish us, you know.

How dreary to be somebody!
How public, like a frog
To tell your name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!"
                                --Emily Dickinson

Debbie
who owes a huge debt to Elkins, whose Neville posts, starting with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/36772 , are the origin of some of these ideas


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