Did Harry See Lily Die? (Was: Neville's Role)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 89869

> > ElfunDeb:
> >
> > No, I believe that Harry saw nothing of Lily's murder, for a couple
> of reasons.
> > 
> > First, if Harry had seen Lily die, he should have seen the thestrals 
> > his first year at Hogwarts.  ...edited...
> > 
> > The second reason is that the memories that the Dementors bring to 
> > the surface are only audio memories. ...edited...  Either way, I 
> > don't think Harry saw either the murder or a dead body.
> > 
> > Debbie
> 
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> My impressions of the event-
> 1.) It was nighttime.
> 2.) Lily and Harry were upstair. <snip>
> 
> So, if I start with those assumptions, what can I conclude? What would
> a baby be doing upstairs at night? ...Sleeping perhaps, or at least in
> bed?
> 
> Extending that assumption, what kind of bed would the baby be in?
> Bed, bassinet, crib, or cradle?
> 
> Putting a baby in a bed is never safe, so that's out. Given the
> somewhat out-of-date world that wizards live in, I can only assume
> they used a bassinet (a large wicker basket like baby bed) or a
> cradle. The cage-like crib seems a little too modern, and doesn't fit
> with other representations of 'baby containment devices' I've seen in
> movies and photos that are representative of this apparent point in
> historical time.
> 
> Conclusion, a bassinet or cradle has high solid sides, and would have
> given Harry a very very limited view of the room.
> 
> This is compounded by wondering whether a 15 month old is capable of
> processing the information sufficiently for it to sink in. Is a baby
> capable of sufficiently processing the event to allow him to see the
> Thestrals? Personally, I don't think so.
> 
> I know that doesn't add much to the discussion, but I think the basic
> logistics make it unlikely that Harry saw, or saw with any awareness,
> his mother die.

Carol:
One very small point. A bassinette is used for a tiny baby of three
months or less, not for a toddler of fifteen months. In the RW, a baby
that age would be in a crib (too young for a regular bed). In the WW,
he might be in a cradle. Either way, his mother could stand in front
of it and block him, though not very effectively. (I always pictured
him as being in her arms, but I admit it would be hard to shield him
that way.) Regardless, it does seem likely that he was asleep and I
agree with you that a fifteen-month-old baby wouldn't be able to
understand that his mother was dead even if he were awake.

But notice that Harry remembers only one flash of bright green light,
the one that gave him the scar, not two. And until he encounters the
dementors, he doesn't even remember screaming, much less words. So I
think that JKR's comment that he didn't "process" his mother's death
is accurate whether he saw it or not.

Another thing that I've just thought of. Notice that he progressively
learns more about his parents' deaths. First he learns that they
didn't die in a car crash; they were murdered by LV. Then he hears
screams, then his mother's words, then his father's words. Then the
order of their deaths (James first, then Lily) is confirmed by the
Priori Incantatem spell in GoF. It seems likely that he'll *see* what
happened in Book 6 or 7, either in a dream or in the Pensieve if he
can somehow learn to pull a memory out of his own head. After all, the
Pensieve has been introduced, but it has yet to play the crucial role
that could play, and it has yet to show us one of Harry's memories.
I'm betting it's that one.

Carol