James the Berk?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105550

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" 
<patientx3 at a...> wrote:
> Valky wrote: 
> But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to
> put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own
> dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark
> magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him.
> So he uses silly hexes. 
> I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or
> actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that
> Snape didn't. 

> HunterGreen:
> But as Del said, their *intentions* were entirely different. Had 
they encountered each other in the hallway and the attack started 
from both ends at the same time, I could see your point, but that 
wasn't how it was at all. 

Valky:
I beg to differ Dear Hunter, James and Sirius approached Snape with 
a single question, a baiting one apparently, but indeed just a 
question.
Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face.
James outdrew him.
The attack *started* from both ends at the same time. 
The ensuing events have little to do with that.


Huntergreen:
Snape was *alone* sitting outside going over his paper, (deep in 
thought, actually), when James and Sirius attack him *first*.
Yes, Snape goes for his wand, but why shouldn't he?

Valky:
James wand was not drawn before Snape reached for his.
Again I reply James outdrew Snape. 
James has every right to cast the first spell, he won the draw.

A question, despite its grating nature, does not constitute a 
magical attack in a duel. Its just slanging. Thats it. If that's the 
*first* attack that your referring to then it has nothing to do with 
duelling at all. Snape is of course within his right to reply with 
his exceptional wit ............. ;D


Huntergreen:
> Then their actions 
> are certainly concerning, first of all its two against one, (more 
> than that if you count they have Lupin and Peter in the sidelines 
> which may or may not have meant something to Snape), 

Valky:
Look deeper Huntergreen. It is always James against Snape.

Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically.
Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta 
Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to 
fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*.

It's not right, I know, but to Sirius its a salt rubbing for his 
psychological wound. He wants to stand over someone like Snape and 
argue with them. He's obsessed with fighting his inner demons, and 
he projects them onto Snape. 
James doesn't mind helping because Snapes a bit dangerous, so if he 
takes him on it's an adventure.
The duel is James and Snape, the rest is Sirius. Pardon the pun. :D 


Huntergreen:
> Thus Snape is disarmed, AND unable to move and that's 
> when they really get into teasing him, when he can't possible 
> retaliate. How is that any better than hitting someone from 
behind? IMO, hitting someone with a spell (in this case 'scourgify') 
when they can't possibly defend themself is the same as hitting them 
from behind. 


Valky:
Irritating this bit. Well, you see that's an overreaction. 
James is reacting to the obscenities from Snapes mouth. It's not 
better than hitting someone from behind, it's just different. 
The bullying objective comes into play here, and this is the one 
line that can really turn you off James. I wish I knew how far he 
would have gone with that stupidity if Lily hadn't interjected right 
then.

You see, this is the difficult part. They've gone too far here, and 
there's no answering it. So far they had managed to disarm Snape one 
on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then.....
.....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should have 
expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, curses 
and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just bested 
you in battle dude, show a little respect for your superiors.".

So stupidity is rife for a moment... then the sun comes up and Lily 
shines really bright.

Aside: I said once that the lesson for Harry from his mother was 
here. Lily didn't really hate James, she probably even agreed just a 
little with his choice of opponent. But she stood up for what she 
believed in, even to her own detriment that she had to call a spade 
a spade even though she really kinda liked the guy that was doing 
it.  
 

Huntergreen:
> As for the 'deadliness' of Snape's spell, that's all conjecture. 
We don't know what it was. For all we know it was a particularily 
> powerful missed Stupify or Expelliarmus, both which would have 
been acceptable in this situation. It *could* have been worse, but 
we don't know either way. However, just because Snape was trying to 
> injur James and James wasn't trying to injur him, doesn't make 
James any better than Snape. 

Valky:
Isn't it funny that we can only answer conjecture about Snape with 
more darn conjecture. Wouldn't we just love to know exactly what was 
going on with that boy.

Seriously though, I doubt it. I see distinct parallels between the 
way Snape fights in COS and the way James fights in the pensieve. 
And between the way Sirius talks in the pensieve and the way Snape 
talks in all the books since we've seen him, except in the pensieve.

Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual 
surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve?

Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the 
current day, he wasn't using it then. 

Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also.

The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am 
absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from 
his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue 
as an adult, his future weapon of choice.
 

Huntergreen:
James was with three friends, he certainly wasn't in any danger. 
Snape, on the other hand, (at least from his own perception), was. 
The nature of the hexes James and Sirius were using could have 
easily escalated to something dangerous (as they nearly do, when 
they use Scourgify and Snape begins choking).
> 
> 

Valky:
Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores Sirius, 
despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. 
James was never in any danger because he was faster than Snape. 
The three friends were not really of any consequence, and Snape knew 
that. 
It was between him and James in his mind, if you look closely at the 
passage you will see Snape never took his eyes off his one and only 
enemy. 
There is Snapes mind for you clear as crystal in canon. 
We can pretty much reject any speculation of the alternate without 
prejudice. 



> >>Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.<<
>

Huntergreen: 
> But is he at this point? We know a few of the death-eaters were 
older than Snape/James/Sirius/Peter/Lupin, perhaps his "gang" had 
already graduated. In any case, if he did have a gang, at this point 
none of them are around so it doesn't really matter.
>

Valky:
What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an 
example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the 
WW. 

  
> Del continues:
> > James was trying to *humiliate* Snape, not to necessarily hurt 
him. That's why he had him fall, he had him hung upside-down, and he 
had his mouth washed with soap. He was trying to make people *laugh* 
at Snape, not pity him.
> 
> Valky:
> >>Snape was an EXAMPLE.
> James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid
> teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT
> THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!!<<
> 
> HunterGreen:
> I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. Maybe if Snape had been doing 
> something at the time and they strode forward and made an example 
of his behavior, but at that moment Snape had been minding his own 
> business, and wasn't bothering anyone. Sirius was *bored*, and 
James and him were trying to have a laugh. Yes, Snape was into the 
dark arts and was prejudice, but is putting him upside down and all 
that really going to change his attitude? Or, for that matter, 
change the attitude of any passing Slytherins? 

Valky:
I think I answered all these questions already. So I will surmise 
for you.

James baited Snape to challenge him. This is how he answered Sirius' 
boredom. 
He said with his actions; 
I'll take on this agro wizard over here, because he likes to hurt 
me, so he will, that should entertain you.
Sirius got excited because his best mate was waltzing into mortal 
danger again, just for fun.
They got Snape in a magical headlock and Sirius tried really hard to 
get Snapes attention. He wanted to vent angry words on Snape. But 
Snape stared at James, he cursed and hissed at James, he loathed 
James with all his being and ignored Sirius.

James knew that Sirius had his own reason for wanting to get Snapes 
attention, Snape knew what that reason was too. But Snape was truly 
only concerned with his rivalry with James.
James lost his cool at the affront.  

(swearing directed at him and ignorance directed at his most 
respected friend.)

Lily stepped in and her part in the event is monumental to her 
goodness.


Huntergreen:
If anything, James and Sirius are setting rather poor examples of 
what 'non-pure-blood-fanatic-dark-arts-loving' wizards are like. 
> 

Valky:
Yes I agree with this statement. But given the danger involved with 
approaching a boy like Snape, I believe they thought they were doing 
a pretty good job of it.

> Del:
> > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to
> be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable 
your opponent, hence the physically harming curse.
> 
> Valky:
> >>From Behind?
> Still makes him less than noble in his intentions.<<
> 
> HunterGreen:
> Who said he was trying to be noble? He was attacked, he attacked 
> back, it seems rather straightforward to me.
> 

Valky:
But as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to 
disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club.
In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James.

> Del:
> > And I sure don't think that humiliating someone is *noble*.<
> 
> Valky:
> >>Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble.
> I am sure I said that *James* was already noble.
> The nobility is behind the action.
> He *was* an 'idiot'.
> With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit.
> He didn't have to change that.
> Snape on the other hand.....?<<
> 
> 
> HunterGreen:
> Are you asking about 15-year-old Snape or adult Snape?

Valky:
15 year old Snape of course, we are talking about the pensieve scene.


Huntergreen:
> As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school 
with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised 
that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted 
into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on 
him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns 
was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way 
around, but who taught him the right way? 

Valky:
Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes 
attention you see........



Huntergreen : 
Dumbledore not punishing Sirius seriously enough 
> (in Snape's  opionion) after the 
> prank incident certainly didn't help. 

Valky:
It is our choices that make us what we are. DD leaves people to 
their bad choices. Including Snape choosing to enter the Shreiking 
Shack despite, that he knew it was dangerous, and Sirius choice to 
send him there. 
You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good 
lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the 
side that DD is on would it?
My point is it could never have helped Snape if he did, it would 
just have created another temptation in Snapes path, he didn't need 
more temptation.  

Huntergreen:
Also, if he really did have  a "gang of Slytherins", those might 
have been his only friends (in the pensieve scene its noted that 
he's not very popular), so if the only students who were actually 
nice to him were other young death eaters, from his perception he 
could get the idea that that was the way to be. Hating muggle-borns, 
thus, was as noble to him as hating people who hated muggle-borns 
was to James.
> 


Actually I am inclined to see Snapes first day at Hogwarts in a very 
similar way to Hermione and Harry's
ie the sorting hat says...... hmmm now where shall I put you..... 
You would do well in Gryffindor... very brave you are.... 

Valky
Who took a full hour just writing her reply to this post. WOW! 
HUNTER!