James the Berk?

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 105604

Valky wrote:
>>James and Sirius approached Snape with
a single question, a baiting one apparently, but indeed just a
question. Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face.
James outdrew him.
The attack *started* from both ends at the same time.
The ensuing events have little to do with that.
[snip]
James wand was not drawn before Snape reached for his.
Again I reply James outdrew Snape.
James has every right to cast the first spell, he won the draw.<<

HunterGreen:
I think we may just have different interpretations of the text. From 
what I read, it appeared that James was looking for a fight, and 
Snape was just being reactionary (pulling out his wand because he 
knew James was about to attack). Snape had no choice but to pull out 
his wand, James was going to attack him either way, that's why he got 
his attention.
AND, there's no indication that James "outdrew" Snape, James might 
very well have had his wand out already.

[OotP chpt 28, pg 645/6, us ed.]
" Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his 
bag. As he emerged from the shadows of the bushes and set off across 
the grass, Sirius and James stood up. Lupin and Wormtail remained 
sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his
eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his 
eyebrows. Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a 
look of avid anticipation on his face.
'All right Snivellus?' said James loudly.
Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an 
attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and 
his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted 'Expelliarmus!' "

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying by any means that there weren't 
times that Snape *did* attack James without reason, and that they 
didn't have actual duels, but in this case he didn't really have a 
choice. Had it been up to him, he would have quietly walked off. He 
was *pulled* into the fight because James and Sirius wanted to have a 
little fun.

HunterGreen previously:
> Then their actions
> are certainly concerning, first of all its two against one

Valky responded:
>>It is always James against Snape.

Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically.
Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta
Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to
fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*.<<

HunterGreen:
You are correct there, but consider this: if Snape had hit James with 
the impedimenta curse, do you think Sirius would have just stood back 
and not helped him? 

Valky wrote (about the 'deadliness' of Snape's spell that cut James' 
face):
>>Isn't it funny that we can only answer conjecture about Snape with
more darn conjecture. Wouldn't we just love to know exactly what was
going on with that boy.

Seriously though, I doubt it. I see distinct parallels between the
way Snape fights in COS and the way James fights in the pensieve.
And between the way Sirius talks in the pensieve and the way Snape
talks in all the books since we've seen him, except in the pensieve.

Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual
surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve?<<

HunterGreen:
You know, that is a good question. Maybe his cool sarcasm requires 
him to be in a calmer, more rational state of mind. All of that goes 
out the window when he's upset at the end of PoA...but not when he's 
upset in OotP (he manages two quips before throwing Harry out of his 
office), so perhaps it did come with age. It would be interesting to 
see a different pensieve scene, one not so humilating for Snape. 
There had to be a time that he won, 


>>Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the
current day, he wasn't using it then.

Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also.

The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am
absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from
his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue
as an adult, his future weapon of choice.<<

HunterGreen:
I will concede that Snape was a dangerous teenager (ditto to his 
adult self, just far more controlled), but I doubt he'd be hitting 
James with a really damaging curse in front of so many witnesses. In 
any case, I really don't begrude him that, because (from his 
perception, perhaps not in reality) his life/health was in danger, 
whereas James' wasn't. James had no reason to use dangerous spells, 
at least not while he had control of the situation.

Valky:
>>What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an
example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the
WW.<<

HunterGreen:
But was he at *fifteen*? Yes, he was a few years later, but do we 
know that at this point he was? He was just part of a "gang of 
Slytherins", whatever they might have done in the future doesn't 
exactly apply here. Besides, I don't think that was what motivated 
the attack. That might have been why James disliked him, but I very 
much doubt James was trying to punish him for anything. It was all 
entertainment for James, it was Snape that was taking it seriously.

Valky:
>>as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to
disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club.
In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James.<<

HunterGreen:
Good point. Perhaps Snape learned something from this incident. 
However, after disarming and using impedimenta, if this were a *real* 
duel, James would have won, and would be expected to *stop* the duel. 
He won, its over. But it wasn't a duel, Snape never consented to 
anything of the sort (he was defending himself, not dueling), and 
James' intent was only amusement, not an actual fight.

Huntergreen previously:
> Dumbledore not punishing Sirius seriously enough
> (in Snape's opionion) after the
> prank incident certainly didn't help.

Valky:
>>It is our choices that make us what we are. DD leaves people to
their bad choices. Including Snape choosing to enter the Shreiking
Shack despite, that he knew it was dangerous, and Sirius choice to
send him there.
You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good
lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the
side that DD is on would it?
My point is it could never have helped Snape if he did, it would
just have created another temptation in Snapes path, he didn't need
more temptation.<<

HunterGreen:
I agree with you. Don't misunderstand me here, I don't think that DD 
should have necessarily done more to Sirius (especially since we 
don't know exactly what he did--whatever it was we just know he 
didn't suceed in making Sirius understand the extremity of his 
actions, but if James and Lupin can't make him see that, then DD has 
no chance), I think that by Sirius not gettig expelled Snape felt 
more bitter and hateful to the side of good, and felt no loyalty to 
DD at that point (I doubt he recognized his fault in all of it 
either, which was being out-of-bounds at night, and getting into 
things which are none of his business). I don't think there was 
anything Dumbledore could have done then to stop Snape from going 
down the path he was on....Snape sort of had to find out that was the 
wrong way on his own. 

>>Actually I am inclined to see Snapes first day at Hogwarts in a very
similar way to Hermione and Harry's
ie the sorting hat says...... hmmm now where shall I put you.....
You would do well in Gryffindor... very brave you are....<<

HunterGreen:
I can see that perhaps with Sirius, but Snape (especially young 
Snape) is *very* Slytherin. It isn't always a bad thing you know. 
SPEAKING of his (and James/Sirius/Lupin/Peter/Lily)'s first day of 
school, it would be really nice to have a pensieve for *that* day. I 
am quite curious how the James/Snape fued got started (and why Snape 
focuses so much more energy onto James than he does onto Sirius who 
appears just as bad).

>>Valky
Who took a full hour just writing her reply to this post. WOW!
HUNTER!<<


(o; You got me to take some time on my reply as well. Glad to see my 
one post in the last week got some attention.


-Rebecca