James the Berk?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 105638


Valky wrote :
> James and Sirius approached Snape with a single question, a baiting 
> one apparently, but indeed just a question.
> Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face.
> James outdrew him.
> The attack *started* from both ends at the same time. 
> The ensuing events have little to do with that.

Del replies :
Let's reconsider the events :
Snape was sitting quietly on his own reviewing his DADA OWL.
He stands up to go away.
His 2 arch-enemies come up *together*.
They insult him *loudly*.

Now let's figure another imaginary scene.
Harry is sitting quietly on his own, revising for his OWLs.
He stands up to go away.
Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come up together, and insult him loudly.

What is Harry going to do ?

Draw his wand.

That doesn't mean that he's going to *use* it. That just means that he
gets into a defensive position, because people with whom he's fought
previously have just talked to him in a provocative way.

And if Draco disarms Harry before he had time to properly get his wand
ready, and then jinxes him, I think it's pretty clear that *Draco
alone* started the fight, not Harry.

Moreover, there is no mention that James *outdrew* Snape. There's no
mention that James had his wand out before Snape went for his own,
either. So no conclusion can be drawn based on the stated facts only.
However, Snape had his bag on his back and was taken unaware, while
James was pre-prepared to a fight, in fact he was hoping for it. So
even if James did outdraw Snape, it still wasn't fair.

Valky wrote :
> A question, despite its grating nature, does not constitute a 
> magical attack in a duel. Its just slanging. Thats it. If that's the 
> *first* attack that your referring to then it has nothing to do with 
> duelling at all. Snape is of course within his right to reply with 
> his exceptional wit ............. ;D

Del replies :
Even in RL, fights rarely start straight by using the fists. Most of
the time, they start with words. Fists give out physical blows, but
words give emotional blows, and it's not rare to see people reacting
to an insult in the same way they would react to a physical blow.
Thus, James's insult *was* the first blow and had indeed started the
duel. Snape could have chosen to keep the duel on the level of words,
but that doesn't change the fact that *James* gave the first blow.

Valky wrote :
> It is always James against Snape.

Del replies :
So what's wrong with Draco ? Why do we despise him for having his
body-guards around whenever he attacks Harry ? After all, it's always
Draco against Harry, isn't it ? So I guess we should actually consider
Draco *courageous* for daring to take on such a famous and obviously
talented wizard as Harry.

OK, I'll stop the irony there. I'm sure you got my point. If it was
indeed James only against snape, then Sirius should not have
intervened. And James should have told him to stop when he did. Harry
would never let Ron hex a lone Draco after he, Harry, had disarmed
him. In fact, Ron would never even think of it, precisely because it's
not a noble thing to do.

Valky wrote : 
> Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically.
> Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta 
> Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to 
> fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*.

Del replies :
Emotional beating up. I hate that even more than physical beating up.

Valky wrote ;
> James doesn't mind helping because Snapes a bit dangerous, so if he 
> takes him on it's an adventure.

Del replies :
Excuse me ??? Snape might have been dangerous, but remind me who
McGonagall described as exceptionally intelligent and talented ? James
and Sirius were every bit as dangerous as Snape, each one of them. It
doesn't take Dark Magic to be dangerous. DD is just as dangerous as
LV, even though he never uses Dak Magic.

Valky wrote :
> You see, this is the difficult part. They've gone too far here, and 
> there's no answering it. So far they had managed to disarm Snape one 
> on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then.....
> .....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should have 
> expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, curses 
> and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just bested 
> you in battle dude, show a little respect for your superiors.".

Del replies :
Yeah, James just bested Snape in an unfair battle, never letting him
any chance. Snape never had any opportunity to actually point his wand
at James, he wasn't given enough time for that. James was no superior
to Snape, and both James and Snape knew that.

Valky wrote :
> Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual 
> surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve?
> 
> Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the 
> current day, he wasn't using it then. 
> 
> Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also.

Del replied :
It wasn't an improvement. Young Snape would have beaten up Harry.
Older Snape humiliates him. I'm sure Harry would prefer young Snape
any day.

Valky wrote : 
> The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am 
> absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from 
> his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue 
> as an adult, his future weapon of choice.

Del replies :
A dangerous fellow ? But they are *all* dangerous fellows ! They all
have the tool to do a lot of damage : magic, whether Dark or not. The
only difference between all the students is their intent in using
magic to hurt other people. And *in this scene*, the ones we see using
magic to hurt someone else *first* are James and Sirius.

And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that
opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any part of
your body : just as dangerous.

Valky wrote :
> Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores Sirius, 
> despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. 

Del replies :
Snape knows that James is the leader. If he can win over James,
chances are Sirius will leave him alone. Snape also knows that James
is the one with the cool head and the sadistic trait, hence the most
dangerous one. Sirius is much more hot-blooded and straight-forward :
a much easier opponent.

Valky wrote :
> James was never in any danger because he was faster than Snape. 

Del replies :
Again : we have no proof of that. You say he was faster, I say he
already had his wand out, and none of us can prove our point.

Valky wrote :
> What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an 
> example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the 
> WW. 

Del replies :
Maybe, but at the moment he was attacked, he was alone and doing
nothing reprehensible. I just don't see Harry attacking Draco when
Draco is all alone, doing nothing wrong and not prepared. Draco would
do that, not Harry.

Valky wrote :
> James baited Snape to challenge him.

Del replies :
No, James challenged Snape by verbally attacking him. A few centuries
ago, people would duel because of a bad word, and nowadays, people
still fight because they don't like what their neighbour said. A
verbal attack is an attack, and an insult is a challenge. After all,
when someone is insulted and doesn't react, isn't he considered a
coward for not standing for himself ? James challenged Snape, not the
other way around.

Valky wrote :
> Sirius got excited because his best mate was waltzing into mortal 
> danger again, just for fun.

Del replies :
Mortal danger !?  Just by attacking another student in front of half
the school!? I think you're giving Snape too much credit here. He was
powerful, but not *that* powerful !

Huntergreen wrote :
> > If anything, James and Sirius are setting rather poor examples of 
> > what 'non-pure-blood-fanatic-dark-arts-loving' wizards are like. 

Valky answered :
> Yes I agree with this statement. But given the danger involved with 
> approaching a boy like Snape, I believe they thought they were doing 
> a pretty good job of it.

Del replies :
You keep repeating that, but do you have any canon stating that Snape
was a mortal danger to anyone ? He was deep in the Dark Arts, all
right, but that doesn't mean he was dangerous yet : he had neither
enough knowledge, nor enough practice, nor enough raw power yet to be
really dangerous.

On the other hand, Lupin as a werewolf was indeed a mortal danger, and
Sirius sent Snape to him.

Valky wrote :
> But as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to 
> disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club.
> In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James.

Del replies :
The situation in the Duelling Club was very different. First of all,
it was a *club*, not a real-life situation. And second, Snape was
fighting another teacher (Lockhart) who was acting as a real peacock.
Snape obviously enjoyed humiliating him by using the most harmless
spell there was : Disarming.
Huh, you're right in fact. Snape did agree with James on that one :
nothing more pleasant than humiliation. Great >:-( !!

Huntergreen wrote :
> > As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school 
> > with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised 
> > that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted 
> > into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on 
> > him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns 
> > was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way 
> > around, but who taught him the right way? 

Valky answered :
> Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes 
> attention you see........

Del replies :
Sirius didn't want to *teach* him, he wanted to *force* him. And you
don't show someone the way to goodness by being mean to them. You say
so yourself :
> You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good 
> lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the 
> side that DD is on would it?

Valky wrote :
> It is our choices that make us what we are.

Del replies :
But somehow, the fact that Snape *chose*, against everything that had
been taught to him as a child, against everything he had believed all
his life, to follow DD in the end, doesn't count, does it ? Snape
*chose* to work for DD and to stop using Dark Magic, but no, he's till
and will always be evil old Snape. How logical is that ? And how fair ?

Del