The sounds of the Last post WAS ( Re:James the Berk? )

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105780

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
>                   
> Valky wrote :
> >  It was a Dark Arts Curse, Snape was serious in battle with 
James, deadly serious. 
> >  
Del wrote:
>  "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what
>  constitutes Dark Magic."
> > 
Valky:
>   Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything Snape uses at that time 
IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style then, right?" ;D
> 
Del: "You know, Valky, I studied Physics in University, which means 
that I had to do a good deal of Maths, which are a thoroughly 
logical field where you have to justify every single deduction you 
make. An argument like yours would have been shot down in no time : 
Snape liked Dark Magic, so he would preferably use Dark Magic, so 
whatever he used had to be Dark Magic. It's so full of holes that it 
would probably give a heart attack to some Maths teachers :-)"
> 

Valky:(absolutely rolling on the floor)

REALLY! So do I! Small world huh, no wonder your debate style is so 
appealing to me.
Oh and I deduce that you meant both are a thoroughly logical field, 
yes? ;D

Of course it's full of holes! You backed me into the proverbial 
corner with your post. I just threw one at you to save my neck.

It's not all that bad, really. You said yourself he knew more curses 
than most 7th years. If he was that well versed in them *logically* 
one of those would be the most infallible attacks he could throw at 
James, since they were above James' level. Rationally, doing so 
could have made the fight more winnable for Snape. So it's likely. 
And that's, an argument, *not* full of holes.
LOL

By the Way, at this point I had better explain my title for this 
post. Unfortunately for me, my next semester has started, and though 
I am having the time of my life here, I must herald the piper and be 
on my way. To the degree that I simply won't have so much time to 
put the same amount of soul into this debate for now.
Besides which, I truly believe that we have already both argued 
exceptional cases in the affirmative and negative for now and sadly 
I must admit there comes a time when the debate must be left to the 
judgement of it's audience. 
So with the exception of whatever you need to say in closing Del, I 
suggest we retire the debate, as of this post.

Now, back to the highwire for me for my final (and hopefully worthy 
of my opponent) round.


> Del :
> Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was 
> entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for 
> no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. 
Valky:
>  "Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? 
It doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere  
else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have  
defended himself?
> > 
> Del: 
Because Snape had been *attacked*, which means that whatever he did 
next would be legally considered as defense.
>

Valky:
Verbally attacked, yes. Which calls for a verbal defense. 
Isn't anything else a counter-attack rather than a defense ?
So perhaps you are saying he would have chosen the "silencio" 
spell. :D
Geez, I am gonna miss this!

 
Del:
>  Being willing to humiliate someone that thoroughly is the 
antithesis of nobility in my idea.
>  
> Valky :
> My only argument is that it isn't really relevant to my mention of 
nobility in James because I absolutely believe he abandoned all 
sense of being right or good the moment he felt the humiliation of 
Lily's rejection. 
******Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue 
this in this context.*********
> 
> Del :
> So it went something like : The girl I fancy has just opposed
> and refused me in public, so now I'm really pissed off, so I'll 
just thoroughly humiliate my favourite adversary, just to calm 
myself down ? But that's horrible, Valky !
>

Valky:
Ohhh I knew you'd find a way to contextualise it for this point! At 
least I never underestimated you hey ? 8|

Horrible may be too strong a word, she didn't just reject *him*. She 
rejected all HIS notions that he WAS all these things I am arguing.
He was able to glaze over her calling him a bullying toerag, but 
when she says to him you're as bad as he is, well... he's stunned, I 
would never call you that word, he says.... he really thinks that he 
is doing the world a favour by being opposed to Snape, he was sure 
Lily would get that.....
He's obviously stumped by it all, he really seems to ask the 
question of himself "Why is what I am as bad as what Snape is?"

He asks Sirius for help and eventually finds himself frustrated by 
his feelings.

Then he does the unthinkable and takes it all out on Snape. It's not 
OK *OR* justified, just to make that point, there are some pretty 
strong feelings at work in James there, thats all.

Del:
> Moreover, I believe that nobility is a character trait : it doesn't
> just disappear because one is upset. Quite the contrary in fact :
> nobility is one of those qualities that are most remarkable because
> they express themselves in conditions when you would not expect 
them. Nobility is *exactly the opposite* of picking up a fight for no
> reason, or taking your own frustration on someone else.
> 


Valky:
Absolutely, a fine response Del. As I never really included much to 
the point defining in what way he was upset, you did really sink me 
with this.
I have to speak in response, because I never really intended for it 
to seem like I was saying he was *just* upset and abandoned all his 
principles. It was his principles, his nobility that Lily shot down, 
something he really believed was *good* about him was thrown to fire 
and a reputation he had sought to build was turned to nothing in the 
eyes of the person to whom he wanted it to matter the most of all.
Strong feelings at work, is all I have to say to close my argument.



> Valky wrote, about Lily saying that Snape was no better than 
James : Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' 
things. 1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your 
furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it 
to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p)
> 
> Del replies : I disagree with both beliefs. Snape uttered a racist 
statement, which indicates to me that he held racist beliefs. And 
Lily stated that she found James no better than Snape *and* she even 
explained why, which indicates to me that she despised James just as 
much as Snape. <snip good physics joke :D>
>

Valky:
Well actually the particle went that way then stopped and went back 
the other direction and I REALLY don't think there was all that much 
change in the second direction to attract the particle. ;D
There may have been an attractant force, in the second direction, 
acting on the particle all along.
Ok, enough of that Valky, I don't think James was all that wrong in 
thinking that his qualities were attractive to Lily. She did 
*almost* laugh at James tipping Snape when Snape attacked from 
behind.
And Sirius the co-bully, especially, didn't abandon James when James 
went through this *amazing transformation* we all debate he did, or 
didn't, need to win Lily's heart. 
No, the inner James was always the same. He learned to express 
himself in a more positive way and that was fine with Sirius and 
fine with Lily, and that's that.
  
> Valky wrote : 
> > 2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated 
James" I put a little more weight on this statement, obviously, than 
you do. (btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can 
question?  Why is he a liar?)
> 
> Del replies :
> I believe that Lily *despised* James at the time of the Pensieve
> scene, not that she hated him. And I don't think she hated Snape
> either, for that matter.
> And I don't think Sirius would outright lie. But James was his best
> friend, he's dead, Snape is not, and all those things happened 
years and years ago. I would be very surprised if he didn't do a bit 
of rewriting History. Not changing things altogether, but modifying
> details and motives and the general atmosphere. We all do, why not
> Sirius ?
> 

Valky:
Treading a semantic fine line, Del? I thought you were a 
scientist. ;P 
If we debate meaning of a word, we'll be here all century. 
So I'll just say, Lily spoke out at James actions with a bit of 
insult for good measure, or effect what have you. Her last flay at 
him was mostly confined to his appalling choices in behaviour, for 
the most she could see, that was, what was wrong with him, and it 
certainly would taint whatever is inside because, gosh darn it, 
we've been debating just that for some very long posts 
now............. deep breath .....   
James had likely done some homework on Lily , he was indeed very 
crushing on her already; he was bright, according to MacGonagall; 
and he was completely unabashed of his behaviour until Lily pointed 
out to him that it didn't impress her. If he *honestly* thought that 
a girl like Lily couldn't possibly respect him for *something*, 
*anything* he was doing in the pensieve scene then surely he would 
have been blushing red and profoundly apologising the moment she 
appeared in his view.
No, absolutely he thought that he was being Brave and Noble and that 
Lily would entirely agree that "Snape existing" was full and just 
cause to stand over and demonstrate him a fool.


> Valky wrote :
> > For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change 
all 
> > that drastically.
> 
> Del replies :
> Lily was, and she knew James better than you do ;-P
> 
Valky:
Oh yes! Better than we all do, for now............ 


Phew, great stuff Del! My hat's off to you for your remarkable 
sportsmanship and fabulous argument. Thankyou very much for a good 
clean fight.

Now I bid a fond Adieu.

I will be, intermittently, available to keep my promise that I would 
defend James to the 11th of never, the confirmed Half Blood Prince 
release date as I have it :P (Just kidding to JKR I know it will be 
worth any wait she needs to get it finished)

Best to you All
Valky