James the Berk?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 105736

                  
Valky wrote :
>  It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take that bet with anyone who 
> dares.....  the precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was 
> serious in battle with James, deadly serious. 
>  
> > Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this
> > particular argument won't get anywhere because...
> > "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what
> > constitutes Dark Magic."
> 
>  The Fox looks startled :"Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything 
> Snape uses at that time IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style 
> then, right?" ;D

Del snorts with laughter : "You know, Valky, I studied Physics in
University, which means that I had to do a good deal of Maths, which
are a thoroughly logical field where you have to justify every single
deduction you make. An argument like yours would have been shot down
in no time : Snape liked Dark Magic, so he would preferably use Dark
Magic, so whatever he used had to be Dark Magic. It's so full of holes
that it would probably give a heart attack to some Maths teachers :-)"

> > Then Del sighs :
> > "Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was 
> > entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for 
> > no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. 
> 
> Fox twirls her wand between her fingers her brow furrows: 
> "Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? It 
> doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere 
> else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have 
> defended himself?"
> 
> Del's knuckles clamp tighter around her wand as the Fox continues to 
speak, and there's a defnite irritated edge in her voice as she
interrupts Valky : "Because Snape had been *attacked*, which means
that whatever he did next would be legally considered as defense."

I, Del, wrote :
> > I don't *care* if James was upset or whatever. In my opinion, 
> > anyone willing to use such methods, whatever the circumstances, is 
> > not noble at heart. Being willing to humiliate someone that 
> > thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea.
 
Valky answered :
> Darn it Del! Excellent point. My only argument is that it isn't 
> really relevant to my mention of nobility in James because I 
> absolutely believe he abandoned all sense of being right or good the 
> moment he felt the humiliation of Lily's rejection.
> Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue this 
> in this context.

Del replies :
Duh ? So it went something like : The girl I fancy has just opposed
and refused me in public, so now I'm really pissed off, so I'll just
thoroughly humiliate my favourite adversary, just to calm myself down
? But that's horrible, Valky !

Moreover, I believe that nobility is a character trait : it doesn't
just disappear because one is upset. Quite the contrary in fact :
nobility is one of those qualities that are most remarkable because
they express themselves in conditions when you would not expect them.
Nobility is *exactly the opposite* of picking up a fight for no
reason, or taking your own frustration on someone else.

Valky wrote, about Lily saying that Snape was no better than James :
> Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' things.
> 1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your 
> furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it 
> to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p)

Del replies :
I disagree with both beliefs. Snape uttered a racist statement, which
indicates to me that he held racist beliefs. And Lily stated that she
found James no better than Snape *and* she even explained why, which
indicates to me that she despised James just as much as Snape. I stick
to the facts :-) (Must be the Physics : try telling a Physics teacher
"well yes, the particle went this way, but honestly I'm sure it meant
to go *that* way instead." LOL !)

Valky wrote : 
> 2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated James" 
> I put a little more weight on this statement obviously than you do.
> (btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can question? 
> Why is he a liar? Did someone just suppose he could be lying and 
> then a bunch of people ran away with it? I, for one, will not be 
> throwing out what Sirius says as canon.)

Del replies :
I believe that Lily *despised* James at the time of the Pensieve
scene, not that she hated him. And I don't think she hated Snape
either, for that matter.
And I don't think Sirius would outright lie. But James was his best
friend, he's dead, Snape is not, and all those things happened years
and years ago. I would be very surprised if he didn't do a bit of
rewriting History. Not changing things altogether, but modifying
details and motives and the general atmosphere. We all do, why not
Sirius ?

Valky wrote :
> For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change all 
> that drastically.

Del replies :
Lily was, and she knew James better than you do ;-P

Del