Snape, Spy, Occlumens Re: [HPforGrownups] (was Still wondering why Snape trusts

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 107826

I (Carol) wrote:
Oops. I guess I should watch my pronouns. I didn't mean that
*Voldemort* is using Snape as a spy. 

Carolina responded: 
> I did.
> 
Carol wrote:
I meant that Snape is spying on *him.* 
>
Carolina responded: 
> Also.
> 
Carol wrote:
The whole idea of his being an occlumens is that he can block
his mind against a Legilimens like Voldemort
> 
Carolina responded:
> --or Dumbledore. The whole idea of being an occlumens is being able
to spy under radar. If Snape's mind is open to Dumbledore's by
default, he is of no use to Voldie.

Carol now:
But I don't think he's spying for Voldemort, though he may be
pretending to. And we don't know that Voldemort knows that Dumbledore
is a legilimens. All Snape has to do is pass along (with Dumbledore's
full knowledged and permission) information that's of some use to
Voldemort in order to maintain his credibility. 

Besides, assuming that Snape was hired to teach at Hogwarts at the
beginning of term in the year Voldemort was vaporized, the "spying" on
Dumbledore would have lasted only two months before Godric's Hollow
and would not have really started up again until the end of GoF, when
Snape, having missed the gathering at the graveyard, went on his
dangerous mission--which I take to be an explanation of his absence to
*Lucius Malfoy*. If, after that, he had to attend Death Eater meetings
to find out their plans for the Order, he would have needed occlumency
to hide his real intentions from Voldemort. For Voldemort to know that
he was an occlumens, capable of concealing information from *him*,
would be extremely dangerous to Snape. 

I (Carol) wrote: 
So, to clarify, I repeat: Voldemort can't know that Snape is an
occlumens or Snape would be unable to attend meetings (or whatever he
does) without being suspected as a spy. (As it is, I'm pretty sure
that Voldemort suspects his loyalty for other reasons, and that he is
"the one I believe has left me forever"--but he seems to have
convinced Lucius Malfoy, at least, that he's actually still loyal.)

Carolina responded: 
> Snape is spying for Voldemort or pretending he does so. If he is not
an occlumens he is of no use to Voldemort and shouldn't be attending
those DE parties and later come home with a legillimens as DD to open
read those secret parties. Voldemorts knows that Snape is an occlumens
or Snape is no use. How can he pretend to be 'good' in front of DD
without being an occlumens?

> If you don't buy that Snape is a double agent, that's another question.

Carol responds:
"Pretend" to be good? I think he *is* good--or at least genuinely on
the good side and loyal to Dumbledore. I never said he wasn't an
occlumens. Of course he is. Even Lupin calls him a "superb occlumens."
I said that I think Dumbledore taught him occlumency to protect enable
him to spy on Voldemort with less risk. It's possible that he's also
using his occlumency to hide his intentions from *Dumbledore,* but I
don't think that's the case.

As I said before, even if Snape is pretending to spy on Dumbledore (as
opposed to *really* spying on him), there's no reason why he needs to
use occlumency to hide his intentions from *Dumbledore* because (IMO)
he's on Dumbledore's side. Nor does Voldemort need to know that he's
an occlumens. I think it would be suicidal to reveal that particular
ability to Voldemort. But Snape *does* need to be an occlumens to hide
his disloyalty from Voldemort, assuming that Snape still deals with
Voldemort directly. 

I think that Dumbledore taught him occlumency early in his spying
career, before he began teaching at Hogwarts, while Voldemort thought
he was still a loyal DE. It's entirely possible that young Snape began
teaching at Hogwarts before Godric's Hollow, at the beginning of term,
under the *pretext* of spying on Dumbledore. But he would have needed
his occlumency to hide his real intention from Voldemort--and that
would have been impossible if Voldemort, too, knew that he was an
occlumens.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one!

Carol, who got sunburned in San Diego and is grateful for rain in Tucson