Snape, Spy, Occlumens Re: [HPforGrownups] (was Still wondering why Snape trusts DD!) (was: James the Berk?)

[silmariel]

No: HPFGUIDX 107484

Carol earlier:
> > > > Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape
>> would be unable to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings
> (whatever he's doing)  without giving himself away.

Carolina replied:
> > > I can't agree with this. If Voldemort is using Snape as a spy, he
> should know that he needs to be an occlumens to do that work. One
> can't be under the nose  of a legilimens for 14 years without being an
> occlumens and  Voldemort should  know, or should be asking himself why
> DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one.


> Carol responds:
> Oops. I guess I should watch my pronouns. I didn't mean that
> *Voldemort* is using snape as a spy. 

I did.

> I meant that Snape is spying on *him.* 

Also.

> The whole idea of his being an occlumens is that he can block
> his mind against a Legilimens like Voldemort

--or Dumbledore

The whole idea of being an occlumens is being able to spy under radar. If 
Snape's mind is open to Dumbledore's by default, he is of no use to Voldie.

--and, as someone pointed
> out with a quote to back it up, Snape can allow the Legilimens to see
> what he wants him to see but hide or block what he doesn't.

A good post, but applicable both sides of the spy game..

> As for why
> Dumbledore hasn't detected him, that doesn't even make sense, since it
> was Dumbledore who asked Snape to teach Harry occlumency. DD not only
> knows that Snape is an occlumens, IMO, he probably taught him occlumency.


Your point was Voldemort didn't know. If V didn't know, he couldn't know that 
DD knew/had taught S, so, 

rephrasing,

[...]and  Voldemort should  know, or (Voldemort) should be asking himself why
DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one. 


> So, to clarify, I repeat: Voldemort can't know that Snape is an
> occlumens or Snape would be unable to attend meetings (or whatever he
> does) without being suspected as a spy. (As it is, I'm pretty sure
> that Voldemort suspects his loyalty for other reasons, and that he is
> "the one I believe has left me forever"--but he seems to have
> convinced Lucius Malfoy, at least, that he's actually still loyal.)

Snape is spying for Voldemort or pretending he does so. If he is not an 
occlumens he is of no use to Voldemort and shouldn't be attending those DE 
parties and later come home with a legillimens as DD to open read those 
secret parties. Voldemorts knows that Snape is an occlumens or Snape is no 
use. How can he pretend to be 'good' in front of DD without being an 
occlumens?   

If you don't buy that Snape is a double agent, that's another question.

Carolina