Snape's part in death of Sirius

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 108004

Neri wrote:
> Furthermore, all this haggling about the timeline does not change
the
> fact that, when Snape first contacted HQ, he didn't bother to tell
> them that Harry had a false vision from Voldy's mind about Sirius
> held hostage in the DoM. And according to DD, Snape did realize
this
> part.
>
> Avoiding just one of the above two mistakes would have likely
> prevented the DoM battle and Sirius' death.

Potioncat replied:
>>[snip] lets look at canon....not a timeline. 
OoP, chapter 37 p830 US
 "... He, like you attempted to contact Sirius at once. I should
explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable
methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's
office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in
Grimmauld Place."

OK, I can read to that to mean he made contact, explained the
situation and determined that Sirius was alive and safe. You
(impersonal you, of course) You can read it to mean that Snape
simply asked "Are you alive and safe?" I'd love to elaborate here
on how "I" think that would go, but it would appear sarcastic, and I
am honestly not being sarcastic. But, see, we can both sincerely
read this differently. (Just like the good old Sorting Hat.) <<

HunterGreen:
OotP does not specify either way if he told Sirius (and whoever else 
was there) about the vision. Even if he didn't though, that doesn't 
mean he was acting maliciously. For one thing, we don't know what 
this 'method' of communication is. If if is using portraits, then it 
would have been too complicated to try and pass on a messege, asking 
Phineas to just see if Sirius is there would be much simpler. If 
there is a better, more direct method of communication, then maybe 
Snape was trying to avoid Sirius jumping up and wanting to run down 
there immediately and rescue Harry (we don't know if Sirius would 
actually do that, but Snape could very easily *think* that he would 
do that). 
At this point the only danger Harry is in is the dangers of being in 
Umbridge's company and being in the forest, and Snape doesn't even 
know about the forest part. For all he knows, Harry is being held in 
her office by herself and several Slytherin students. Not a good 
situation for Harry, but Snape doesn't care about that. Harry's not 
in any danger as far as he knows, and even if it did occur to Snape 
that Harry might be planning a trip to London (which is a strong 
possibility, Snape understands *that* part of Harry's mind), there's 
not really any chance of him leaving from her office, is there?

Potioncat:
>> To continue quotes:
"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest
with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still
believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldermort's. He alerted
certain Order members at once."

We don't know when this is. He contacts Grimmauld Place the first
time moments after leaving Umbridge's office.("at once") We do not
know when he found out Potter, Umbridge and Granger had gone into
the forest and not returned. Did he find out, wait a little then
get worried? Or did he find out at one time that Harry had gone into
the forest and had not returned? Canon does not tell us. But again
we're told he contacted HQ "at once". <<

HunterGreen:
This is where the timeline problems could have arised. Snape is 
called to Umbridge's office, Harry sends him the little messege 
(about Sirius in the DoM), Snape checks on it, finds out its not 
true, but after that, we don't know what he did. We don't know when 
(or how) he found out that Harry and Hermione and Umbridge went into 
the forest, and we don't know how long he would consider 'too long'. 
Neri is right, the three or four hours it takes before the order is 
called to the MoM (between sunset--10pm--and the time they arrive at 
the DoM, which is probably between 12:30am and 2:30am) is quite long 
by anyone's mind (and at dark, no less). 
However, this is assuming that Snape found that Harry was going into 
the forest at eight or nine when he left. If he found out because he 
went back up to check on the Slytherins and found them hexed, then 
woke up them, and *they* were unsure of how long ago Harry went into 
the forest (and remember, Snape can't show a great zeal to find this 
information out), it could explain the missing time.
How about this:
-Around 7 or 8pm, Snape contacts the order and finds out Sirius is 
fine.
-10pm, he hears that Malfoy (and the other Slytherins) are missing 
from the commonroom (from another Slytherin who seeks Snape out 
because he is the head-of-house). 
-10 to 11pm: He arrives at Umbridge's office, finds them all 
unconscious. He wakes (one or all) of them up, and asks what happened 
to Harry and the others and who hexed them. He is told that Harry and 
Hermione went into the forest with Umbridge, and the others hexed 
them. (the Slytherins, being unconsious all this time, may think all 
of this *just* happened). 
-11:30pm: In order not to appear suscipsious, he takes the Slytherins 
to the hospital wing and leaves (perhaps under the guise that he's 
going to track down Harry and the others to punish them)
-Midnight: He finds out that Harry and the others are not in their 
common room, and therefore duduces that he must still be in the 
forest.
-12:30am: Just to be sure, he contacts the order, who, after arguing 
with Sirius about going and hearing the *whole* story, leave 'at 
once', which puts their leaving time at about 1am, and their arrival 
in the DoM (since they'd have to Floo or appaperate to the main hall) 
at about 1:30am (could be later depending how much time it took them 
to find Harry and the others since they were no longer in the hall of 
prophecies).


Potioncat:
>> To Continue quotes:
" ...A Moody, N Tonks, K Shackelbolt and R Lupin were at
headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at
once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he
needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had
happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he,
Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you."

We don't know if Snape said, "Perhaps Potter is at the DoM, will you
go look?" or if during Snape's report, one of the aurors
said, "Let's go look in the DoM!" <<

HunterGreen:
I get the feeling that it was more their idea than Snape's to go the 
DoM. Snape wouldn't be considering searching the forest if he didn't 
think there was a good chance Harry was in there. Besides, at this 
point, it seemed rather unlikely that Harry left the grounds at all. 
I don't think it occured to Snape that six children would leave the 
grounds on Thestrals. From the non-reader's point of view, it was 
most likely that something happened to Harry in the forest and that's 
why he hasn't come back. The aurors were going to the DoM to *make 
sure* Harry and the others weren't there, which is a strong reason 
why Sirius *should not* have come. 
For some reason the MoM was deserted that night, but if someone *had* 
been there, it would be rather hard to explain what Sirius was doing 
with them, and they (the auror's) would most likely have to pretend 
to 'capture' him and let him get sent back to Azkaban.

Potioncat:
>>Somehow, Snape knows that DD is due "any moment" at Grimmauld
Place. Did he talk to DD somewhere between calls to HQ? Is it a
scheduled event? <<

I'm thinking its a scheduled event. Dumbledore, wandering around in 
his fugitive state, would be smart to give the order certain times 
he's going to be around, so they know when they can contact him. 
Either that or he's sleeping at GP and returns every early morning 
around the same time, which could be possible. (Dumbledore does sleep 
right?)

Potioncat:
>>Now, if all this is to make or refute the claim that Snape is the
one responsible for Black's death. I don't buy it. I think that
not having an Order Member at HQ waiting for DD, caused a delay in
DD's arrival at the DoM and also contributed to loss of life.

But I don't see the use in naming one person as being at fault.
Mistakes were made by several people across a span of time. It's a
war. People die.<<

HunterGreen:
I agree. The amount of time it took the order to get there is 
unfortunate, but I think it can be blamed more on the fact that it 
was astounding enough that Harry was able/wanted to get to the DoM 
than on Snape delaying. Remember, Snape didn't know that Harry tried 
to contact Sirius and got Kreacher (he could just think that Harry 
*planned* to contact Sirius and was caught before he got the chance). 
He may consider Harry rash enough to want to run off to London to 
save Sirius himself, but at this point Harry doesn't have his broom 
(the school brooms are probably locked up at this time of night), and 
the Knight Bus, I assume, will not come in the middle of a forest. 
Harry would probably have to go to the *front* of the school to catch 
it. 
Mistakes were made, I just don't see any of them being Snape's. There 
was no way for him to know that Harry was going to a).Get out of 
Umbridge's office, b). Decide to go to London, and c). Find a way to 
get there. It was all Harry's fault for running off without thinking 
of going back to Snape first to see if he understood the messege (and 
perhaps already contacted the order), and Dumbledore's fault for not 
telling Harry than Voldemort might try and lure him to the DoM.