What if other teachers behaved like Snape?

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 101189

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
> 
> Darrin wrote : 
> > Snape's views on Harry have nothing to do with the war. They have 
to do with things that happened when he was a teenager. 
> 
> Del replies :
> How do you know that ? The way Snape told Harry that he was neither
> special nor important during his first Occlumency lesson, when all 
the evidence point to the contrary, indicated to me that Snape deeply
> resents Harry's role in the war. After all he, Snape, did, it was
> still Harry who got all the credit at the end of the first war, for
> something he didn't even do consciously. 

McGonagall, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Moody, Lupin, Sirius and all the 
other members of the Order of the Phoenix did quite a bit during the 
war too. 

Don't see them reacting this way to Harry.

Maybe you're right. Maybe Snape resents Harry and is jealous Harry 
gets all the attention, but we have from D-Dore, who has as good an 
insight into Snape as any, that Snape and James hated each other.

Perhaps Snape is a resentful, petty man who can't celebrate V-Mort 
being gone because of the way it happened. Just one more reason to 
dislike him.

My problem is not with people who pity Snape, hope Snape gets it 
together or enjoy him for his humanity.

My problem is with people who admire him and apologize for him.


Harry became the Boy Who
> Lived, while Snape was just the Former DE or the Traitor, depending 
on  people's side in the war. And it will be exactly the same in the 
>war that's starting : no matter what Snape will do, it will still be 
Harry who will turn out to be the hero. For someone like Snape who 
>craves recognition, I guess it's a bit hard to take. So IMO to say 
that Snape's dislike of Harry is ONLY linked to James is being quite 
blind to the extent of Snape and Harry's personal relationship.

Whether it's James or it's resentment over the war, Snape needs to 
get over it. So Harry had no conscious memory of defeating V-Mort? 
That means he didn't mean to do it.

Which means, either way, Snape is blaming Harry for something he 
doesn't remember.

And Harry is ridiculed, slandered and put through hideous detentions 
for his insistence on V-Mort's return. Perhaps Harry IS pulling his 
weight now, so Snape, once again, should let the hell up. 




> Darrin wrote : 
> > Hagrid and McGonagall lost friends to their students' fathers. 
And  while I'm at it, Draco has done everything he can think of to 
get  Hagrid fired, and Hagrid still treats him professionally. 
> 
> Del replies :
> McGonagall is around 70, she was already 50-ish by the time the 
>first war started, so I'm not surprised that she should be more 
>forgiving> and that she should have enough self-control as to not 
punish kids for their fathers' crimes.

But again, McGonagall was out there fighting when Snape was in 
school. And soon after Snape graduated Hogwarts, he became a DE. He 
WAS a DE for a period of time.

This argument is actually strengthening my case. Someone who is a 
veteran of the war has more self-control than someone who grew up in 
it.

That does not strengthen the case for Snape, if he has less self-
control than someone who actually experienced it.

 
 So I stick to what I said : Snape's personality has been deeply
> influenced by the LV war, much more so than most other characters, 
and
> we have to take that into account.

Moreso than OTHER characters? Prove it. Even if I bought what you 
said about Snape somehow being affected more by what was going on 
than people actually doing battle, Sirius and Lupin, and younger 
members of the Order like Shacklebolt should have the same influence.

 
> Darrin wrote :
> > These brats have tried to get Hagrid fired AND they worked 
against  teachers while being members of the Inquisition Squad.
> > 
> > They are starting to come into their own, sins-wise, and yet they 
> > are STILL treated professionally.
> 
> Del replies :
> In fact, Draco has only been doing what he saw his father do, and 
what> he knows would please his father. Draco is still only his 
father's> creature, and he most definitely has NOT come into his own 
yet,> sin-wise or otherwise.
> 
> And that might be the reason he's still treated professionally by 
his> teachers : because he's so obviously only Lucius's puppet (and a 
bad one too : he's letting his own feelings of jealousy interfere 
with his father's orders to look fond of Harry).
> 

OK, fair enough. Maybe the teachers realize that Draco doesn't have 
to turn into what his father did.

Wouldn't it be loverly if Snape realized that about Harry? After all, 
James isn't around to influence Harry.

Other teachers are working against Lucius' influence. 

> Darrin wrote :
> > I'm judging him as a teacher. Someone entrusted with 
responsibility. 
> > I don't care if someone else is older. Are we REALLY saying that 
> > Hagrid has more self-control than Snape?
> > 
> > Yes, we are. 
> > 
> > Pretty pathetic on Snape's part.
> 
> Del replies :
> HOW SO ??? How is it pathetic that Hagrid, a 60-something half-
giant, shoud have more self-control than 30-something pureblood Snape 
> Hagrid HAS to have self-control, Snape doesn't. Hagrid will suffer
> harsh consequences if he doesn't keep his temper (that I don't even
> see he has anyway) in check, Snape won't. Hagrid is sensitive to 
love> and trust given to him, Snape isn't. Hagrid is fundamentally 
happy> with his life, Snape isn't. And so on.

> 
> Del replies :
> Going back to Harry, are we ?
> 
> No I'm not especially expecting Harry to be normal. I realise that
> he's been bent by his life, and that what's happening to him is only
> bending him further. And that's why I'm glad that JKR described him
> with faults, and making mistakes : because it's realistic. It makes 
me> want to see if and how he's going to react to avoid ending up as
> another Snape full of pain and hatred. That's why, for example, I'm
> not ready to just brush away Harry's attempt at using the Cruciatus
> Curse : because it's fascinating to me, because I want to see if and
> how it's going to affect him, what he's going to do about it, etc...
> 
> And that's why it makes me cringe when you try to convince me that
> Harry can do no wrong : it's unrealistic, and it's denying his 
story.
> 

Never once have I said Harry can do no wrong. Check the tapes. I've 
never said that. My problem has always been with the moral 
equivalency some try to put forward on this list.

It goes something like this:

Harry broke the rules to rescue Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets.

Draco broke the rules to try to knock Harry off the broom in PoA.

Harry & Draco - Both rulebreakers!

Or like this:

Snape took off on Harry from the very first day of class.

Harry doesn't give Snape a chance!

Harry & Snape - both to blame!

And I have a major problem with downplaying what Harry has gone 
through in order to make Snape the star of the piece. 



> Darrin wrote : 
> > Oh, that's right. He treats the Creevey brothers badly. He gets 
into  a fight with Hermione over a broom.
> > 
> > How dare he.
> 
> Del replies :
> Those comments are so childish that I hope you're very young Darrin.
> May I remind you that this group is called "Harry Potter FOR GROWN
> UPS" ? Your attitude is not that of a grown-up. If you can't handle
> people with differing opinions, people who don't have the same
> sympathies as you have, people who don't share your every feeling,
> then you're going to suffer on this list indeed. Sorry for that, 
but I won't give in to your childish methods.
> 

So don't. 

And please. I doubt I will "suffer" anything on the list besides 
getting a lot of posters upset with me. Done it before. 

I don't care if people have differing opinions or not. I'm pointing 
out how ludicrous it is when people's best shots at Harry have to do 
with "being upset with the Creevey" brothers, as if that MATTERS to 
the price of eggs.

I find the moral equivalency offensive.

Darrin