What if other teachers behaved like Snape?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 101159


Darrin wrote : 
> Snape's views on Harry have nothing to do with the war. They have to 
> do with things that happened when he was a teenager. 

Del replies :
How do you know that ? The way Snape told Harry that he was neither
special nor important during his first Occlumency lesson, when all the
evidence point to the contrary, indicated to me that Snape deeply
resents Harry's role in the war. After all he, Snape, did, it was
still Harry who got all the credit at the end of the first war, for
something he didn't even do consciously. Harry became the Boy Who
Lived, while Snape was just the Former DE or the Traitor, depending on
 people's side in the war. And it will be exactly the same in the war
that's starting : no matter what Snape will do, it will still be Harry
who will turn out to be the hero. For someone like Snape who craves
recognition, I guess it's a bit hard to take. So IMO to say that
Snape's dislike of Harry is ONLY linked to James is being quite blind
to the extent of Snape and Harry's personal relationship.

Darrin wrote : 
> Hagrid and McGonagall lost friends to their students' fathers. And 
> while I'm at it, Draco has done everything he can think of to get 
> Hagrid fired, and Hagrid still treats him professionally. 

Del replies :
McGonagall is around 70, she was already 50-ish by the time the first
war started, so I'm not surprised that she should be more forgiving
and that she should have enough self-control as to not punish kids for
their fathers' crimes.
Hagrid is pretty old too, and he's half-giant. The simple fact that
he's kept contact with humans for so long indicates that he's mastered
 his supposedly inherited angry and brutal feelings a long time ago,
probably even in his childhood thanks to his father's upbringing. And
I see his love of monsters as his way of keeping in touch with the
wild side of his personality. 

Darrin wrote : 
> So maybe Snape was "shaped" by the war. (And let us also remember 
> which side of the war he started on.) But McGonagall and Hagrid were 
> actually fighting it when Snape's world was battling with James and 
> Sirius.

Del replies :
The WW was at war all the time that Snape and the Marauders were at
Hogwarts. It's bound to have had an influence on them. And especially
on Snape, since we know that he was friendly with older Slytherins who
almost all turned out to be DEs, pretty much right after leaving
school. That means that Snape was in contact with the war right from
about 14 or 15, which means also that no, Snape's world was not
confined to fighting James and Sirius (unlike Draco, but that's
another post) : Snape had friends out there who were fighting. And yes
he was in contact with the "wrong" side of the war, but the fact that
he changed side after becoming a fighter himself indicates to me that
he might not have had all the cards in hand when he made his initial
decision. 
So I stick to what I said : Snape's personality has been deeply
influenced by the LV war, much more so than most other characters, and
we have to take that into account.

I, Del, wrote :
> > About kids paying for their fathers' sins : in France, we are 
> > barely starting to talk about the kids who were born during the 
> > WWII and who had a French mother and a German father, and we're 
> > horrified by what we're discovering. There was nothing more 
> > innocent than those kids, and yet many of them were treated in 
> > ways that would make the Dursleys' treatment of Harry look 
> > heavenly in comparison. 

Darrin commented : 
> There you go again. Anything to downplay the mental and physical 
> abuse Harry suffered, huh?
> 
> And again, we're not talking about innocent kids when we're talking 
> about Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. (We don't know Nott too well) We're 
> talking about Hitler Youth.

Del replies :
Darrin, you're not even reading what I'm writing, are you ?

1. I wasn't comparing the German-fathered kids to any of the books'
kids. I was explaining that making the kids pay for the fathers' sins
is unfortunately a very human thing. Snape is nasty to do that, but
he's just human.

2. I was in no way trying to downplay Harry's suffering. I was only
looking for a comparison that everyone on this list could understand.
Your jumping to the conclusion that I'm trying to demean Harry yet
again is almost ridiculous and smells of paranoia.
By the way, I mentioned previously that I like Harry *when I read the
books*. Not much, but I do. It's the Harry you're trying to present on
this list, Perfect!Harry, that I hate.

3. Comparing the Slytherin kids to Hitler Youth is ridiculous. The
Hitler Youth program was a state-established program in which kids
were embrigaded by force, where they were brainwashed and taught to
revere only one person and one ideology, and where they were trained
to blindly obey their leaders. Slytherin House comes nowhere close to
that. For starters, if Draco adores anyone, it's his father, not LV.
And I doubt that if anyone but Lucius told him to jump, he would ask
"how high ?" And he'd be an awful soldier, coward as he is.
So please stop comparing what's not comparable. 

Darrin wrote :
> These brats have tried to get Hagrid fired AND they worked against 
> teachers while being members of the Inquisition Squad.
> 
> They are starting to come into their own, sins-wise, and yet they 
> are STILL treated professionally.

Del replies :
In fact, Draco has only been doing what he saw his father do, and what
he knows would please his father. Draco is still only his father's
creature, and he most definitely has NOT come into his own yet,
sin-wise or otherwise.

And that might be the reason he's still treated professionally by his
teachers : because he's so obviously only Lucius's puppet (and a bad
one too : he's letting his own feelings of jealousy interfere with his
father's orders to look fond of Harry).

Darrin wrote :
> I'm judging him as a teacher. Someone entrusted with responsibility. 
> I don't care if someone else is older. Are we REALLY saying that 
> Hagrid has more self-control than Snape?
> 
> Yes, we are. 
> 
> Pretty pathetic on Snape's part.

Del replies :
HOW SO ??? How is it pathetic that Hagrid, a 60-something half-giant,
shoud have more self-control than 30-something pureblood Snape ??
Hagrid HAS to have self-control, Snape doesn't. Hagrid will suffer
harsh consequences if he doesn't keep his temper (that I don't even
see he has anyway) in check, Snape won't. Hagrid is sensitive to love
and trust given to him, Snape isn't. Hagrid is fundamentally happy
with his life, Snape isn't. And so on.

And as far as responsibilities go, we haven't seen that self-control
and responsibilities go together in the WW (not that they go together
in the RL either) : just look at Fudge, Umbridge, etc... (in fact it
looks more like self-control is seen as something bad : if one doesn't
show their emotions, they can't be trusted) And it's not because
people are made teachers that they suddenly turn responsible. If all
your teachers were responsible then you can count yourself lucky !! I
know many of mine weren't, and I know why : because they are just
human beings. Some friends of mine planned on becoming teachers when
we were at university, and that scared the heck out of me, because I
knew their many shortcomings, until I realised they would be no worse
than many teachers I had.

I, Del, wrote :
> > You've said it, Snape is incapable of doing better. He's been bent 
> by everything that happened to him or that he did, and expecting him 
> to be normal is unrealistic. 

Darrin replied :
> And yet we expect Harry to be. And we don't seem to have a problem 
> judging him.

Del replies :
Going back to Harry, are we ?

No I'm not especially expecting Harry to be normal. I realise that
he's been bent by his life, and that what's happening to him is only
bending him further. And that's why I'm glad that JKR described him
with faults, and making mistakes : because it's realistic. It makes me
want to see if and how he's going to react to avoid ending up as
another Snape full of pain and hatred. That's why, for example, I'm
not ready to just brush away Harry's attempt at using the Cruciatus
Curse : because it's fascinating to me, because I want to see if and
how it's going to affect him, what he's going to do about it, etc...

And that's why it makes me cringe when you try to convince me that
Harry can do no wrong : it's unrealistic, and it's denying his story.

Darrin wrote : 
> Oh, that's right. He treats the Creevey brothers badly. He gets into 
> a fight with Hermione over a broom.
> 
> How dare he.

Del replies :
Those comments are so childish that I hope you're very young Darrin.
May I remind you that this group is called "Harry Potter FOR GROWN
UPS" ? Your attitude is not that of a grown-up. If you can't handle
people with differing opinions, people who don't have the same
sympathies as you have, people who don't share your every feeling,
then you're going to suffer on this list indeed. Sorry for that, but I
won't give in to your childish methods.

Del