[HPforGrownups] Re: What if other teachers behaved like Snape?

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 101672

On 16 Jun 2004 at 10:59, Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote:

> >On 15 Jun 2004 at 19:25, Trevor wrote:
> 
> > I cannot agree more, however, it is not only Neville that Snape mistreats:
> > his behavior to others is awful- a teacher has no right to belittle or to
> > call names (calling Hermione a know-it-all in front of the DADA class in
> > POA).
> 
> >>>From: Shaun Hately [mailto:drednort at alphalink.com.au]
> 
> A teacher has no right to do this?
> 
> That's an opinion - not a fact. At my school, it was quite clearly
> understood that a teacher *did* have a right to belittle students
> and to call them names - but *only* in very very specific
> circumstances.
> . . . But in my case, on the very few occasions (I can think of
> two) where a teacher took this approach, it *worked*. It made me
> work harder. It really did.<<<
> 
> Perhaps this is a cultural thing. I'm in the US and speaking only for my
> experience, if any teacher treated me like Snape treats some of his
> students, I would definitely NOT have felt motivated to learn or do well. 

It is certainly a cultural difference to a great extent - but it's 
also a *personal* difference.

I benefitted from this in class. So did a lot of my classmates. But 
certainly not *all* of them. There were plenty who gained no 
benefit, and probably some who would have been harmed by it in 
terms of losing motivation, etc, and things like that.

*No* method of teaching, *no* style of teaching is appropriate for 
all students all the time. That's something that some educational 
theorists seem to have a hard time grasping at times. That there's 
no magic method that works for everyone all the time. And if you 
act like there is, you wind up neglecting some students (the ones 
who your method don't work for) in favour of others (the ones that 
they do work for).

My view of teaching is that teachers need to use a range of methods 
- and to use the appropriate method for the individual they are 
dealing with. This means, to me, that if there are *any* kids in a 
class who are even occasionally going to gain some educational 
benefit from being 'belittled' (that's not the term I'd use but 
let's not get into semantics), then it is a valid strategy that the 
teacher should have the right to use. In the cases it was used with 
me, it was basically intended as a way of getting my attention, and 
making me feel bad about the fact I wasn't doing what I was meant 
to - I didn't want it to happen again, so I got back on track. 
That's *me*. There were other people around me who it wouldn't have 
worked for - and fortunately my teachers were generally competent 
enough to know these things.

Now, back to the specific issue of Snape.

Every indication I've seen in the books shows me that Snape *is* an 
effective teacher at least in the academic sense - his students 
learn the material they are required to. I have the impression that 
potions is one of their hardest subjects - and they do learn it.

*If* Snapes methods were leading to his students failing, I would 
have no hesitation in condemning them - and that's why I do have 
some problem with his treatment of Neville. Because in his case, 
I'm just not sure it's improving things - and Snape has had enough 
time to work that out by now.

> In
> fact, in my senior year of high school, I had a math teacher who always
> spoke in a patronizing tone to the class as a whole, calling us animals,
> making ridiculous jokes. I thought he was awful and that we, although
> students and much younger, still deserved respect. In contrast, whenever I
> had a teacher who made me feel special or worthwhile or just gave me a
> little extra time, I not only wanted to do well for me but also because I
> didn't want to let that teacher down. Of course, that might just be more
> about my own personal dynamics with authority figures, but I still think
> it's more of a cultural thing. I don't think many US teachers would get away
> with insulting their students, or openly favoring others (and I wish I could
> think of a RW equivalent to taking points of one's "house" but I can't.)

Yes, and it's also *perfectly valid* for a teacher to make their 
students feel special or worthwhile or give them a little extra 
time - again, *if* it's what those students need. And if, with a 
particular student, and a particular teacher, there's an 'easy way' 
and a 'hard way' and both will be equally effective, of course, the 
teacher should take the 'easy way'. And there's also plenty of  
teachers who can't do both depending on which is appropriate at the 
time.

This is a hot button for me - I spent time in a school where 
everything was sweetness and light, where teachers spent all of 
their time trying to make learning happy and passionate for their 
students.

And I *hated* it. I learned *nothing*. For me it was a complete, 
unmitigated disaster. Not because the methods were bad ones - 
plenty of kids were flourishing in that environment. They just 
weren't right for me. And because they were so dedicated to their 
cause, they couldn't change their methods.

And then I spent time in a school where the number one priority in 
every class was for every student to learn. Most of the teachers 
didn't go out of their way to be mean or cruel - many, in fact, did 
their best to make the classroom a happy place for learning - it 
just wasn't their number one priority (if they could manage to do 
both, great - if there was any conflict, academic achievement came 
first).

And this was the educational environment I *thrived* in. I *loved* 
it overall - even though there were certainly bits of it I hated.

And some of the teachers I learned the most from were the ones who 
were most Snape like - because they wouldn't let me get away with 
anything except working.

Now, one of the reason, the Harry Potter books appealed to me when 
I first read them is because Hogwarts reminds me a lot of my old 
school. And frankly - well, it worries me when I see people so 
willing to condemn the teaching methods of Snape - because I've 
seen them work so well. Most people who condemn them - not all - 
come from a very different educational culture - a culture in which 
someone like Snape is the very anathema of the ideal teacher.

But that's not the only educational culture that exists, and it's 
not the only effective one.

I would hate an educationally PC Hogwarts - the books just wouldn't 
have worked for me - just as that type of school system didn't work 
for me. And for a lot of other people too.

The cultural differences are very real - honestly, I find it rather 
hard to understand why these books are as popular as they are with 
people who haven't had any exposure to the educational traditions 
(or even the 'educational literature' traditions) that JKR draws on 
so heavily in designing Hogwarts. It's weird to me - I know a 
significant number of fans do know the corpus of British school 
literature, but I'd say they are a distinct minority. Maybe it's 
that Hogwarts just seems so fantastic to people who are unfamiliar 
with that background that the fact that its fantastic gives it a 
special appeal... but there's people like me who love the books, 
and love Hogwarts because it's so *familiar* in many ways. 
Interesting dichotomy possibly - one large body of fans liking the 
school because it seems so ridiculousy unrealistic... and one large 
body of fans liking it because it seems so familiar. (-8



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia