[HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with being bad ?

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 102199

On 20 Jun 2004 at 7:32, Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote:

> Yes, it can be, and that's kind of been my point over and over
> again. I learned quite well in classes which had teachers who acted
> like Snape - far better than I would have in classes where the
> teacher let me get away with whatever I liked. And I know a lot of
> other people who did as well.
> 
> There are far *worse* ways of teaching than those employed by
> Snape. I've experienced them.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> bd-bear:
> 
> You consistently contrast Snape with teachers who would "let you get away
> with whatever you liked." But don't you see a middle ground here? 

Yes, I do - but please read what I have written in context of the 
question I am answering at the time.

I do believe there is a huge middle ground - and I think the number 
of teachers who 'let students get away with anything they like' is 
extremely small. But when I have talked about that idea, it's been 
in response to questions *specifically* about Snape's treatement of 
Gryffindors versus his treatment of Slytherins. In that *particular 
instance* I think the comparison is valid - because it looks very 
much to me like that is how Snape teaches the Slytherins - it looks 
to me very much like he lets them get away with doing whatever they 
like in the classroom without consequences.

When I've used that expression, I'm talking about a *specific* 
situation, in response to *specific questions* about the way he 
seems to teach two *specific* groups. I'm not, on those occasions, 
making a general statement.

> For
> example, IMO McGonagall doesn't let the students get away with stuff. She's
> very strict, the students know that and yet they respect her. She doesn't
> single someone out and verbally attack them or sabotage their work. (Okay,
> she's made snide comments about Neville, she's not perfect.) But she's not
> abusive the way Snape is. She doesn't accuse the students of doing things
> without proof (or a sufficient chance to explain), she doesn't act like she
> has a vendetta against them, as Snape does with Harry. That is a teacher I
> could respect. Maybe I wouldn't LOVE how strict she is, if I was her
> student, but I wouldn't think she was unfair or abusive, which is what I
> think Snape is.

As I've said previously, I think McGonagall is a far superior 
teacher to Snape, and I certainly would have preferred her as a 
teacher over Snape. 
 
> Also, with all due respect, just because there are worse ways of teaching,
> in your opinion, does NOT justify Snape's methods of teaching. I grant you
> this is the WW, and JKR wrote things this way for a purpose, which is why I
> don't get in these debates much. But I am alarmed when I read your posts as
> it seems you are advocating some excessively harsh teaching methods. Really
> none of us on this list know what you went through or can say what did and
> didn't work for you. We can only speak to the HP world, and as far as that
> world goes, Snape DOES abuse Harry and Neville, he DOES disrespect them, he
> DOES unfairly punish them and that is what a lot of people are reacting to.
> I personally can't see how anybody with a real-live Snape-like teacher could
> benefit from that.

No, I am not advocating some excessively harsh teaching methods. 
First of all, I don't really believe the methods Snape uses are 
'excessively harsh', but even if I did, I am not *advocating* them. 
What I am doing is offering an alternative opinion to the idea 
often expressed on this list that the methods Snape uses are ones 
that *must* damage students and can *never* possibly be of benefit 
to students.

I don't support Snape's methods. I just don't think he's the 
Torquemada of teaching. I benefitted from teaching methods like 
those who he used (and so do literally dozens of other people I 
know). I benefitted more from methods similar to those used by 
McGonagall - but I wasn't *harmed* by the Snape methods. I drew 
great educational benefit from them.

I'm not defending the methods - I just don't like the constant 
assumptions by some people based on their own experiences, or often 
on educational theory without any experience - that methods like 
those used by Snape must automatically be bad ones educationally. 
My experiences differ.

And I don't particularly enjoy reading posts that are basically 
telling me that the experiences I had as a child couldn't possibly 
have happened.

In real life, these methods sometimes work. They *really* do. Some 
people on this list don't believe that. Fair enough. They're 
entitled to say why they don't believe it. But if I disagree, I 
will say so. That's my right and that's all I'm doing.

Some people on this list believe that the books are unrealistic 
because they feel that children who experience teaching methods 
like Snapes must suffer severe trauma because of them, and could 
not possibly learn anything from it. Those beliefs are, IMHO, 
erroneous - because I did experience such methods, and so did many 
of my friends, and we were not traumatised by them - and we did 
learn from them - my school had one of the highest academic 
standards around, and these teachers were among its most effective 
teachers. Children *can* experience Snape like teachers and prosper 
in their classrooms - it's not unrealistic that the children taught 
by Snape aren't gibbering wrecks.

I do *not* defend Snape's methods (although I do wonder if in his 
*specific* case, he'd be less effective if he used other methods) - 
I just don't think they are as bad as some people make out.

I also certainly do not think it's a choice of 'be Snape' or 'do 
nothing'. When I've made comments like that, it's been in reference 
to the specific split between the way he treats Gryffindor's and 
Slytherin's in Harry's potions classes - and in that case, I think 
the characterisation of method is valid. But not anymore generally 
than that.

The issue in those *specific* cases is whether the methods he uses 
with Slytherins are better than those he uses with Gryffindors. In 
my view, the Gryffindors are getting the better deal in those 
classes - because he doesn't seem to be providing the Slytherins 
with much at all.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia