[HPforGrownups] Is education a right or a privilege in WW? Was: Re: More on Snape

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 102658

On 24 Jun 2004 at 3:06, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Alla:
> 
> Shaun, I can only speak for myself, I cannot speak for many people, 
> but my beliefs are a little bit different.
> 
> it is not that "the methods that are worked for me are the best", it 
> is "the teaching methods I was taught are the best"

OK, that is certainly different.

> As I mentioned earlier, I underwent four years of training to become 
> a teacher, therefore I am somewhat familiar with the subject matter, 
> even if I did not become a teacher in the end.

I'm currently studying to be a teacher - and it's an interesting 
fact that my university, around the year 2000, completely changed 
the way it trained teachers from the period 1985-1999, and in 1985, 
they changed from the methods they used from 1977-84 (1977 was a 
change as well but I don't know when the method they were using 
prior to that was introduced). The way they teach teachers to teach 
changes quite regularly in line with new theories, reassessments of 
old theories, personal preferences by the people designing the 
course, etc, etc.

I also know that the methods we are taught at my university are 
considerably different from those being taught to education 
students at the two other universities I am most familiar with.

In my course, we are taught there are a range of valid measures, 
they will teach us some of the range, and it's up to us to develop 
our own styles and views based on what works for us (and also for 
the environment we wind up teaching in).

We are most definitely *not* taught that the ways they are teaching 
us are the best ways - merely that they are ways they have found 
generally successful most of the time, and so are useful 'defaults' 
to be used until we develop our own teaching styles and beliefs.

The idea that the way a teacher was taught to teach might be 
considered the best way, quite frankly horrifies me because I was 
educated by several teachers who had been taught I didn't exist.

Theories change, ideas change, and teacher training, like any form 
of education, is sometimes heavily influenced by ideology rather 
than fact.

The methods you were taught may be good methods - hopefully it's 
very rare that teachers are actually taught bad ones - but I doubt 
any education course can ever claim to universally be teaching 
something they can claim are the best methods possible in all 
circumstances for all children.

But there are hundreds of places around the world where teachers 
are trained, and the methods they are taught to use change quite 
regularly... they can't *all* be teaching the best ways (-8
 
> Alla:
> 
> Yep, self-confidence is very important and as I said before even if 
> child learns the material and at the same time gets very real 
> emotional scars from such learning, it is not worth it To ME.

It wouldn't be to me either. But I can't see any evidence of any 
student at Hogwarts winding up with educational scarring because of 
Snape.

There's a big difference between a classroom environment being 
uncomfortable for a child to be in, and between it actually causing 
any form of significant damage. I can see that Neville is very 
uncomfortable in Snape's classes - and that means he doesn't learn 
much. But that doesn't mean he's being scarred by the experience.

What we see is that over time, Neville develops both competence and 
confidence while at Hogwarts.

Alla:
> 
> I understand what are you talking about perfectly, but I don't 
> remember any proof in canon that to get to Hogwarts you have to reach 
> certain standards. Hogwarts is the only wisarding school in Britain, 
> yes. Most exclusive? Not necessarily.

If it's the only one, then by definition it's the most exclusive. 
(Also, by definition, it would be the least exclusive.) It has a 
minimum standard for entry - it is not open to *all* children born 
into Wizarding families.
 
> The only reason why Neville's family was worried is that they thought 
> that he was a squib. It seems to me that any MAGICAL child can get to 
> Hogwarts.

"'Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch,' said Neville, 
'but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages. My Great Uncle 
Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out 
of me - he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly 
drowned - but nothing happened until I was eight. Great Uncle Algie 
came round for dinner, and he was hanging me out of an upstairs 
window by the ankles when my Great Auntie Enid offered him a 
meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced - all the way 
down the garden and into the road. They were all really pleased, 
Gran was crying, she was so happy. And you should have seen their 
faces when I got in here - they thought I might not be magic enough 
to come, you see. Great Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my 
toad.'" (PS, p, 93)

That paragraph seems to tell us that not all magical children get 
to go to Hogwarts.

Until Neville was 8, his family was worried he was a squib - all-
Muggle, as he calls it here. Neville's bouncing showed that her 
wasn't a squib.

But it's quite clear that that didn't mean Neville was going to go 
to Hogwarts. It's quite clear from what Neville says that "They 
were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy." and 
"And you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they 
thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see." are separate 
incidents. He's talking about two separate occasions. Even after it 
became clear Neville wasn't a squib, his family were still 
concerned he might not be 'magic enough' for Hogwarts.

> I still think that Harry and Neville would learn more without Snape 
> in classroom, though. :)

Very probably.

But would Hermione? Would Seamus? Would Parvati? Would Dean? Would 
Lavender?

There are, depending on which numbers you believe anywhere from 280 
to 1000 students at Hogwarts. The importance of the fact that Harry 
and Neville might learn more with a different teacher could only be 
accurately assessed if we know what it means for the other 
students.

And there may not be another teacher available. We have some 
indications that Dumbledore has a hard time finding staff...


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia