CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)

[serenadust]

No: HPFGUIDX 91881

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

 
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
> responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
> relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with
> Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had 
been Seamus
> and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly 
broke a
> school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any
> more seriously than Ron did?


Actually I think that Harry was far too distracted by his own 
problems to have been very effective as a prefect during his fifth 
year.  Also, considering that Harry usually heartily approves of the 
twins hi-jinks (and of course, he's really sponsoring them), he'd 
have been unlikely to want to give the twins a hard time for doing a 
bit of product development research.  Added to all this is Harry's 
concern with maintaining Fred and George's respect (remember in GoF 
when he worries that the twins will think he's "losing his nerve" if 
he complains about his scar pain?), and he'd likely be even less 
motivated to tell them off than Ron is.

As for Ron, he has no trouble pulling rank on Seamus and putting him 
in his place when he's fighting with Harry.  It's only with his out-
of-control older brothers that he avoids confrontation in carrying 
out his duties.  After all, Hermione is only effective in stopping 
the twins' antics when she threatens to tell their mother.  Can 
anyone imagine what would have happened to Ron if he'd tried that 
approach? ::shudders::



 
> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into
> picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with 
Ron that
> "they should at least see what they're picking up?"


I think that her zeal for her SPEW project has overcome any sense of 
fair play in this case.  I agree with the earlier poster who said 
that it's odd that Hermione doesn't seem to really have studied the 
house elves, and she just assumes that they will be freed if they 
pick up the hats she's leaving around.  I don't think that they 
actually would be freed if they did pick them up based on what we 
learned in CoS when Harry tricks Mr. Malfoy into freeing Dobby.  The 
only thing Hermione actually accomplishes is to gravely insult the 
elves who are already unhappy with her, so yes I do agree with Ron 
in this case. 

> 3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talk
> to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the 
trouble
> and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
> antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that 
Rowling used
> similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to 
making it up
> with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to 
engage in
> anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think 
it is
> stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness 
that
> causes Harry to react this way?

In this particular case, I think that it's mainly stubborn pride 
that causes him to react the way he does to Seamus.  He plainly 
doesn't want to talk about what happened when Cedric was killed, but 
he has shared a dorm with Seamus for 4 years at this point, and 
could probably avoided the whole ugly fight and subsequesnt chilly 
relations for most of the year if only he'd sat down and told the 
story to all the Gryffindore boys in his year.
  
> 
> 4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for the
> Keeper tryouts)?


Good question.  I think that I did guess what he was doing because 
of all the OOP spoilers published in May and June concerning Ron 
being on the Quidditch team.  I'm not sure I'd have caught on 
otherwise.


> 
> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines
> that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not 
being
> very good with time details?


I suppose it is just possible, but honestly I think that JKR is once 
again revealing her lack of numerical skills ;-).


> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know 
the extent
> of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely 
Harry's
> distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing 
weakness")
> that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay 
silent.
> Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got
> to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to 
McGonagall
> or Dumbledore.


Again, we see a lot of Harry's stubborn pride right from the 
beginning of OOP, although his distrust of adults and authority 
figures surely plays a part in his failure to report his detention-
torture.  However, I also believe that his reaction to Umbridges' 
treatment is consistent with the Hogwarts culture, since we don't 
see any evidence of Lee Jordan's filing a complaint when he gets the 
same treatment later in the book.  Maybe it's a "wizard-guy thing".



> 7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of 
him
> trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in 
general), or is
> this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather 
plainly?  Do
> you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-
esteem
> issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and 
avoids
> giving them reason to bother him.


Another good question.  I can't think of any reason for Ron to 
believe that Harry would *ever* laugh at him for trying out for the 
Keeper position.  They've certainly played pickup games with the 
twins back at the Burrow, so it's not as if Harry's never seen him 
play before.  I do think that it's mainly Ron's lack of confidence 
behind his secrecy, and I also think that his fear of the twins 
ridicule also is a large factor in his self-esteem problems.  
Without really meaning to, F&G have really boxed in their little 
brother who is desperate to keep them from classifying him 
as "another Percy", particularly after becoming a prefect.

 
> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is 
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later 
books?

At the time I first read it, no, I wasn't convinced about Harry's 
scar-pain at Umbridges' touch being a coincidence.  However, I don't 
think that I ever believed that Voldemort was possessing her, either 
because I just don't think that JKR would use that trick twice.


> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that
> Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will 
clearly
> wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to 
make a
> romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she 
likes him
> back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when 
he's in
> the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her 
in knitting
> the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>


Gee, I didn't think that this was a shipping question at all ;-).
Actually, I remember laughing out loud the first time I read the 
passage in question because I thought it was extremely obvious that 
the reason Hermione is sleeping in the middle of the Gryffindor 
celebration for Ron is that Fred and George have slipped her a 
mickey.  

"'Let her sleep,' said George hastily.  It was a few moments before 
Harry noticed that several of the first years gathered around them 
bore unmistakable signs of recent nosebleeds." OoP, p276, Scholastic 
edition.

It never even occurred to me that she'd be snoozing out of boredom.  
In fact, she'd probably have been hyper-alert in order to protect 
the first-years from the twins' experiments since she's already 
caught them at it before.  I'm positive that getting Hermione out of 
commission was at the top their list that night ;-).

As for the romantic aspects of the situation, I don't think that Ron 
would put any sort of move on Hermione at this point no matter how 
happy he was at making the team.  I'm sure he thinks that she's 
already involved with Krum, the older, famous Quidditch star, and 
that he doesn't believe that he stands a chance with her.  Anyway, 
let's face it; neither Harry or Ron are ready to pursue the girls 
they are interested in.  If Hermione hadn't pushed him so hard, I 
don't think Harry would ever have taken the intiative to ask Cho 
out.  He and Ron are still in the stage where they'd rather admire a 
girl from afar, than risk almost certain humiliation.

I don't think that Hermione needs or wants to scheme to be alone 
with Ron.  They already spend loads of time on their own together, 
and I imagine she knows that Ron isn't about to "do anything" about 
his crush on her (even *if* she's still sure that he has one).

As for her asking Harry to help her knit elf-hats, I just saw that 
as one more example of how she just doesn't really "get" Harry when 
it comes to understanding what he considers fun.  He'd probably 
rather help Snape out in the dungeons, than help knit elf hats! <g>

Great questions!

Jo Serenadust, waving to all the other Jo's who've appeared on the 
list lately