CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)

[davewitley]

No: HPFGUIDX 91878

Hi, Penny!

Nice questions!

> Surfacing only briefly from lurkdom probably ...... but here to 
give the
> Chapter 13 summary and provide some questions for discussion.  :--)

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
> responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
> relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with
> Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had 
been Seamus
> and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly 
broke a
> school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any
> more seriously than Ron did?

I agree with those who saw this as beyond Ron and, but for her 
personal knowledge of Molly, Hermione.  One suspects that most 
prefects confronted with older pupils misbehaving would quietly 
leave it in the hope that the teachers would pick up on it.  I don't 
know about boarding schools, but I think the way that teachers at 
Hogwarts only enter the common room or dormitories in emergencies is 
very unusual.

> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into
> picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with 
Ron that
> "they should at least see what they're picking up?"

Yes, I do agree with Ron on this.

I think Hermoine's behaviour is odd.  It's not just manipulative, 
it's *ineffectively* manipulative and, at first sight, her lack of 
interest in whether her trick is working seems very un-
Hermionelike.  The effect on me is to make me wonder if she just got 
lucky with some of her supposed successes in OOP.  As if she has 
three or four templated behaviours that work well in the situations 
she has encountered, but hasn't learnt when not to use them.  One 
wonders, for instance, what the other members of the DA would have 
thought if they'd found out she'd cast a latent curse on them: not 
only was it without their knowledge but how would, say, Ginny feel 
about whether she's trusted or not?

> 3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talk
> to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the 
trouble
> and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
> antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that 
Rowling used
> similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to 
making it up
> with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to 
engage in
> anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think 
it is
> stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness 
that
> causes Harry to react this way?

Hmm.  As others have said, all the above, but I'd add that for 
British children all that is culturally built in.  I never had to 
endure anything like Umbridge but I'm pretty sure I would have had 
the same response, and I think a great many kids would more or less 
expect that.  Indeed, at 45, it's a great effort for me to adopt any 
other attitude now when faced with any sort of trouble or difficulty 
and I still don't think I'm untypical.

> 4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for the
> Keeper tryouts)?

I can't remember.  I don't think so.  I suspect what was going on 
was that I intuited somehow this was not a puzzle of great plot 
significance, and lazily assumed the best way to find out was to 
read on.  I'm a very passive reader, so would only have tried to 
work it out had I been interrupted between puzzle and solution.

> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines
> that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not 
being
> very good with time details?

I don't really know how to answer this.  I feel the answer is 
either, 'Yes, it's canon, so it must have been possible' or 'No, 
it's fiction, and none of it happened.'  In other words, we don't 
have any sound criteria for defining 'possibility' in a fictional 
universe (especially a magical one) excerpt the author's assertions. 
It feels to me like asking whether love is purple.
 
> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know 
the extent
> of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely 
Harry's
> distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing 
weakness")
> that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay 
silent.
> Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got
> to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to 
McGonagall
> or Dumbledore.

I can't remember the time sequence now, but McGonagall is not really 
very inviting of confidence in her discussions of Umbridge with 
Harry.  Again, culture: you are on your own.

> 7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of 
him
> trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in 
general), or is
> this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather 
plainly?  Do
> you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-
esteem
> issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and 
avoids
> giving them reason to bother him.

There is later evidence in the way he improves after they leave.  Of 
course Ron should know that Harry would not laugh at him.  However, 
remember when, in POA, Neville innocently tells (or was overheard 
by) Draco that Harry fainted on the train, and Draco mocks Harry in 
consequence.  Harry has rather more sense to keep quiet, but I think 
Ron's general caution is understandable.

Also, Ron probably doesn't have objective evidence of his ability 
until Angelina selects him, and could reason that if Harry or 
Hermione thought him a bad player they would never have said so.
 
> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is 
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later 
books?

At the time I kept an open mind.  I'm still not completely sure, 
because it may be that Harry's scar becomes more active (and so 
channels Voldemortian emotion more strongly) whenever his defensive 
instincts are aroused.

> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that
> Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will 
clearly
> wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to 
make a
> romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she 
likes him
> back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when 
he's in
> the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her 
in knitting
> the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>

I agree with those who have said the three are chiefly occupied with 
their own concerns.  Does this rule out the possibility of romantic 
feelings for the time being?  It is of course novelistic convention 
that being in love - or liking and being liked back - trumps all 
other considerations, but is this realistic?

David