Apparating into the Ministry...

[steffy07]

No: HPFGUIDX 93764

> > kashelkar's reply:
> >  
> >  Here I'd like to clarify certain things:  The entire OOP book 
> >  revolves around the prophecy.  The plot involving the prophecy 
and 
> >  Voldy's desire to capture it, is the backbone of the book.  
Hence 
> > it must be made clear beyond any reasonable doubts that it was 
> >  IMPOSSIBLE for Voldy (for some reason or other) to go and grab 
the 
> >  prophecy himself at any point of time.  However, this is not 
very 
> >  clear in the book.
> 
> Catherine McK – You're right, it isn't. However until Rookwood 
told 
> LV that the prophecy could only be collected by its subjects, LV 
> didn't need to go and get it himself. He tried an indirect 
approach 
> that would discredit the Ministry (Imperiused!Bode). So at least 
> until the DE escape from Azkaban, Voldemort assumes that anyone 
can 
> get the prophecy and he doesn't need to risk himself. Only after 
the 
> conversation with Rookwood does he need to try another way. Harry 
is 
> not his first plan.
> 
> >  
> >  I don't agree with Catherine's statement:  "...So perhaps the 
DE's 
> >  were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get as far 
as 
> >  they did without raising any alarm at all. ....."  
> > 
> > Kashelkar's reply:
> >  
> > Obviously, if the DEs were discovered entering the MoM, the 
> > security there would be tightened, and even Voldy won't be able 
to 
> > break-in afterwards.  So, this was their first and last chance, 
and 
> > hence the DEs must have done a lot of homework on this.  
> Informations 
> > such as anti-burglary spells put on the MoM, the security 
persons, 
> > their habits etc etc. had to be gathered and analysed properly. 
> > Obviously, no one would be able to break into the office of a 
> > ministry as and when he wishes.  And here we also must assume 
this, 
> > that the break-in at the MoM was carefully planned and executed 
by 
> > Voldy and DEs. And therefore, I must say that it was most simple 
> for 
> > Voldy to plan his own journey to and fro MoM, rather than plan 
HP's 
> > journey.  In execution of any plan there are numerous things 
which 
> > can go wrong. However, when you yourself are a part to the 
> execution, 
> > you can keep atleast some of the things under control.  (eg.  
what 
> if 
> > Harry couldn't get any transport?? what if some professor at 
> Hogwarts 
> >  stopped him??  What if Snape was able to contact him with the 
news 
> > that Sirius is safe?? What if he could not escape from 
Umbridge?? 
> >  What if Hermione, after all, was able to contain him, and he 
> > decided not to go???  What if he met with an accident on his way 
> and 
> > could not make it to the MoM??? There are so many ifs and 
buts...  
> > All these (and many more) questions must get the right answers 
for 
> > Voldy's plan to succeed and he doesn't have any influence over 
> these 
> > events at all.  If Harry doesn't go to MoM that time, he'd soon 
> come 
> > to know abt the reality, and then in future he'd never react to 
> > such 'visions'in haste.)
> > > 
> >  And hence, I feel that it was most natural for Voldy to plan 
the 
> >  break-in at MoM in such a manner that He himself would be able 
to 
> > go there and grab the prophecy.  I don't think that this was a 
> > difficult task, a little more caution, a little more carefulness 
> and 
> > he gets what he desires.  He could disguise himself in different 
> ways 
> > for this (invisibility cloak, polyjuice potion etc).  Bringing 
HP 
> to 
> > MoM to do all this looks highly far-fetched.  Once you think 
this 
> > way, the climax of the book is not fun to read at all (unlike 
CoS, 
> > where the plot is very convincing and the climax is fun to read 
> again 
> > and again).
> 
> Catherine McK responds
 I'm not snipping because I think I need 
all 
> Kashelkar's well-thought out argument to make the point. It is 
(from 
> our present knowledge) far more difficult for Voldie to get Harry 
to 
> take the prophecy that for LV to do it himself. So why does he get 
> Harry to do the deed? To my mind there are three possible answers –
 
> 1)	JKR didn't plot well enough.
> 2)	There were additional problems for Voldemort, which will be 
> revealed at a later date
> 3)	Someone was giving Voldemort bad advice. We know that 
> Voldemort cannot gather all the information he makes his decisions 
on 
> himself, and sometimes that information turns out to be wrong, 
e.g. 
> plan (a) was based on the fact that Avery believed Imperiused!Bode 
> could get the prophecy. After its failure, presumably Rookwood 
then 
> said "My Lord, it must be you or Potter". What happened then we 
don't 
> know. Maybe LV did intend to whisk in himself to get it until 
another 
> DE suggested that was a  high-risk approach. A cunning, ambitious 
DE 
> who didn't actually want the plan to succeed, and knew his way 
around 
> the Ministry, for example (yes, I'm back on my traitor!Lucius 
hobby 
> horse).


I too have left in everything posted before me so my post would make 
more sense...

IF LV whisks into the Ministry and steals the Prophesy, then it 
would have been obvious that he had, in fact, returned.  By 
convincing Harry to sneak into the Ministry, LV has solved that 
problem.  Umbridge would tell Fudge that Harry escaped from the 
school, and when the Prophesy was missing, Fudge would announce 
Harry stole it.  LV's return would not be proven.  However, if Harry 
was tucked away quietly in bed at Hogwarts the whole time, and the 
only other person that could have retrieved the prophesy was LV, and 
the prophesy was gone, well then, Fudge was wrong, Harry was right 
and LV is back.

Of course, all of LV's plans were to no avail because he was 
discovered anyway, but I don't think OOTP has plot holes or is less 
entertaining to read...I think it makes perfect sense