Snape and the Order

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 93899

Carol:
> 
> So I think that Snape was working in the utmost secrecy, with only
DD aware of what he was doing until he was hauled in front of Crouch 
> as a suspected DE and cleared by Dumbledore's testimony. That was
the point, I'm guessing, when DD decided to give Snape a teaching 
> position to keep him safe.
> 
> I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
> hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it is 
> called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while everyone, 
> even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  If so, 
> Dumbledore's testimony would not have put Snape in additional 
> danger. 

Carol:
Yes, but over 200 witches and wizards were present for Karkaroff's
testimony against his fellow DEs, including Snape. True, both Crouch
and Dumbledore vouched for Snape, but Moody clearly had doubts that he
had reformed. (Crouch!Moody, of course hated him for the opposite reason.)
 
Carol:
> > Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before Voldemort's 
> fall (around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). 
> 
Debbie:
> I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching at 
> Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.

Carol:
Can you provide your canon for this? IIRC, all we have is Snape's
statement that he's been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years.
Unlike McGonagall, who says "thirty years this December," he does not
supply a month, suggesting (to me, at least) that he began teaching at
the usual beginning of term, September first.

Debbie:
<snip> In the Shrieking 
> Shack, Sirius was very surprised to discover that Snape was at 
> Hogwarts, and only at that point did he learn that Snape was a 
> teacher.  However, I think that Snape took up residence at Hogwarts 
> as a sanctuary immediately afterwards. 

Carol:
Sirius was busy working with the Order and deciding whether to be
Secret Keeper. I don't know where the Order's headquarters was at that
time, but it certainly wasn't at Hogwarts. So there's no reason why he
would know whether Snape was there or not, and no particular reason
why he would be following Snape's movements in any case. 

Debbie: 
> Just to clarify:  do you think Dumbledore testified before Crouch 
> *before* Voldemort's fall?  Otherwise it would be inconsistent to
say that Dumbledore gave Snape the job before Godric's Hollow if he 
> didn't decide to do it until after his testimony.

Carol:
We know that Snape "returned to our side," as DD puts it, before
Voldemort's fall and spied for DD "at great personal risk" during that
time. So clearly the spying job was before Godric's Hollow. I'm
assuming (sorry--no canon that I know of) that DD vouched for Snape at
that private hearing after he had proven himself. (The Karkaroff
hearing was clearly later, probably after he had begun teaching.)
Obviously we both need to work out a time sequence for all this if we
can, but I don't think we have enough evidence to be sure either way.
> 
Carol wrote:
That's the only way I can explain the DEs in Azkaban knowing about
Pettigrew when Snape apparently didn't. If he was at Hogwarts that
Halloween night (and the week or so before while the Secret Keeper
arrangements were being made), he wouldn't know that Peter, not
Sirius, betrayed the Potters. He'd be as much in the dark as
Dumbledore apparently was.
> 
Debbie responded:
> I doubt very many people knew that Pettigrew was working for the 
> DEs.  It would have endangered Pettigrew's role to spy on the Order 
> if more people knew than were absolutely necessary.  After 
> Voldemort's disappearance, however, any intelligence the DEs had
that Pettigrew had ratted on his friends in order to be on the winning 
> side would be very important to know because it would establish his 
> lack of trustworthiness in future operations.  These concerns would 
> have been justified, IMO, as Pettigrew only went back to Voldemort 
> when he was out of other options. <snip>

Carol:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. I guess you don't think
that Snape had to be at Hogwarts to be unaware that Pettigrew rather
than Sirius was the spy/Secret Keeper. (I've argued elsewhere that
Bellatrix was probably the only DE who knew and later informed the DEs
alreay in Azkaban.) But you seem to agree that Snape didn't know, and
therefore that he really believed Sirius was a murderer until the end
of PoA, just as DD and the Weasleys and everyone else did. (Let me
know if I'm misinterpreting you here.)

Debbie:
> I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
> weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book handy 
> or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
> Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
> Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week after 
> the charm was performed.   
> Also, in light of all the canon developing the backstory
relationship  between Snape and the Potters, I would be very surprised
if Dumbledore learned that Voldemort had targetted the Potters from 
> anyone other than Snape. <snip>
> It also seems very plausible that Snape's learning that the Potters 
> had been targeted for elimination was the catalyst that set in
motion his changing sides, another piece of circumstantial evidence
pointing to his joining Dumbledore within a couple weeks of the
attack. <reluctant snip>

Carol:
My only problem with this scenario is that it doesn't allow much time
for Snape to be a spy "at great personal risk" before he becomes a
teacher. And you can't just create a teaching position out of thin
air. There had to be at least one vacancy, either Potions or DADA or
both. Maybe the Potions teacher became the DADA teacher so Snape could
have the position. But I think he must have applied before the
beginning of the term, knowing that there was a vacancy, rather than
somehow being giving a teaching position well into the term because he
was in need of a safe haven. (I don't question the need for a safe
haven; I just think he must have been teaching at Hogwarts already
before the Godric's Hollow murders.)

Debbie:
> I can't imagine that he would have approved of the DEs' taste for 
> purposeless Muggle killings, or of the kind of obsequiousness the
DEs were required to show toward Voldemort, and, probably, toward
their  DE superiors. Continuing that relationship is a role that Snape
must play as a spy.  I think he's been playing that role for the last
14 years, and that Snape's treatment of the Slytherins vs. his
treatment of Harry is a big part of that.  However, it must be very 
> distasteful for him to continue a role he rejected when he left the 
> DEs. 

Carol:
I agree with almost all of this, except that I think the period of
spying preceding the teaching was somewhat longer, more than a year
based on the time between the prophecy and the start of term the
following year.

Debbie:
 Therefore, Sirius' taunt that Snape was Lucius' lapdog must 
> have seemed particularly cruel to him, because it was both painful 
> and, at least at one level, true.  To take up a point that Eloise 
> made on another thread, though, I have no doubt, however, that Snape 
> views Lucius as the lapdog.

Carol:
Just a quibble here, and I've said this before to no avail. Everyone
seems to take "lap dog" to mean "errand boy," but it actually means "a
small pet dog" or "pampered pet." Picture a rich old woman with her
pampered miniature poodle in her lap. So, yes, it's an insult to both
Lucius and Severus, but it seems to me to apply to a time when they
were boys (five or six years apart) and Severus was sort of a "pet" to
the older Lucius, who IMO found him precocius and amusing.

> Debbie who is sorry to have rambled on so, but posts on Snape so
> rarely that it seemed important to cram it all into one post

Carol, who can't comprehend posting rarely on Snape!