Snape and the Order

[elfundeb2]

No: HPFGUIDX 93852

Carol:

So
> I think that Snape was working in the utmost secrecy, with only DD
> aware of what he was doing until he was hauled in front of Crouch 
as a
> suspected DE and cleared by Dumbledore's testimony. That was the
> point, I'm guessing, when DD decided to give Snape a teaching 
position
> to keep him safe.

I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it is 
called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while everyone, 
even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  If so, 
Dumbledore's testimony would not have put Snape in additional 
danger.  
> 
> Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before Voldemort's 
fall
> (around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). 

I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching at 
Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.  (In my wilder 
moments, I believe Snape was *at* Godric's Hollow and sounded the 
alarm, though I have no canon support for this.)  In the Shrieking 
Shack, Sirius was very surprised to discover that Snape was at 
Hogwarts, and only at that point did he learn that Snape was a 
teacher.  However, I think that Snape took up residence at Hogwarts 
as a sanctuary immediately afterwards.  

Just to clarify:  do you think Dumbledore testified before Crouch 
*before* Voldemort's fall?  Otherwise it would be inconsistent to say 
that Dumbledore gave Snape the job before Godric's Hollow if he 
didn't decide to do it until after hist testimony.


That's the only way
> I can explain the DEs in Azkaban knowing about Pettigrew when Snape
> apparently didn't. If he was at Hogwarts that Halloween night (and 
the
> week or so before while the Secret Keeper arrangements were being
> made), he wouldn't know that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the 
Potters.
> He'd be as much in the dark as Dumbledore apparently was.

I doubt very many people knew that Pettigrew was working for the 
DEs.  It would have endangered Pettigrew's role to spy on the Order 
if more people knew than were absolutely necessary.  After 
Voldemort's disappearance, however, any intelligence the DEs had that 
Pettigrew had ratted on his friends in order to be on the winning 
side would be very important to know because it would establish his 
lack of trustworthiness in future operations.  These concerns would 
have been justified, IMO, as Pettigrew only went back to Voldemort 
when he was out of other options.

Also, Rookwood (I think it was he) testified in the Pensieve that the 
identity of DEs was not generally known to other DEs.  Thus, assuming 
that the DEs operated on a kind of "cell" system, Snape may simply 
have been in a different cell than the DEs in Azkaban.  Even before 
Sirius' "lapdog" remark, I pictured him as reporting to Lucius 
Malfoy, and that Snape's task at the end of GoF related to Malfoy, 
not Voldemort.

Potioncat:
> I've seen a very good post that suggests Snape actually 
> came to DD witin days (or even hours) of the attack on the Potters.

I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book handy 
or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week after 
the charm was performed.  

Also, in light of all the canon developing the backstory relationship 
between Snape and the Potters, I would be very surprised if 
Dumbledore learned that Voldemort had targetted the Potters from 
anyone other than Snape.  (This may be how Dumbledore found out that 
Voldemort had learned of the prophecy; Dumbledore quizzes Snape on 
the contents of the prophecy to test his veracity and thereby learns 
that Voldemort's knowledge is incomplete.)   

It also seems very plausible that Snape's learning that the Potters 
had been targeted for elimination was the catalyst that set in motion 
his changing sides, another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing 
to his joining Dumbledore within a couple weeks of the attack.  I 
think that he had been disaffected with the DEs long before he 
approached Dumbledore.  Snape is a very controlled person who does 
not act randomly (irrationally, perhaps, but always with a purpose, 
whether it's tormenting Harry and Neville in potions classes, 
favoring the Slytherins, etc.)  

I can't imagine that he would have approved of the DEs' taste for 
purposeless Muggle killings, or of the kind of obsequiousness the DEs 
were required to show toward Voldemort, and, probably, toward their 
DE superiors. Continuing that relationship is a role that Snape must 
play as a spy.  I think he's been playing that role for the last 14 
years, and that Snape's treatment of the Slytherins vs. his treatment 
of Harry is a big part of that.   However, it must be very 
distasteful for him to continue a role he rejected when he left the 
DEs.  Therefore, Sirius' taunt that Snape was Lucius' lapdog must 
have seemed particularly cruel to him, because it was both painful 
and, at least at one level, true.  To take up a point that Eloise 
made on another thread, though, I have no doubt, however, that Snape 
views Lucius as the lapdog.

Debbie
who is sorry to have rambled on so, but posts on Snape so rarely that 
it seemed important to cram it all into one post