Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 94001

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
> Hey, no problem. It doesn't hurt, but it does get the 'defender' 
part of me
> up and going.
> 
> My problem comes from people who bash Snape and yet cannot see 
those very
> same traits in Sirius or other chracters in the books. To me, it's a
> hypocritical treatment. Both men have had hard, abusive, unhappy 
lives that
> very likely screwed them both in the head. But because one of them  
loves
> the main character and the other appearently doesn't, only the one 
that
> 'hates' the main character consistently gets bashed for being 
arrogant,
> cruel, thoughtless, bullying and immature (and yet both men exhibit 
all
> these traits--it's only thier target that differs). Just because 
one of them
> 'limits' himself to 'grownups' and 'evil creatures' doesn't make it 
any more
> right. In fact, I think it's worse because it really *IS* 
Hypocritcal at
> that point. ('Oh, you're mean, nasty, evil and old, so it's okay if 
I treat
> you this way, even though I'd scream holy hell if I saw you treat 
some kid
> this way'...Say what? Isn;t this person a being who should be 
respected as
> well...? Nevermind, self righteousness only extends to certain 
levels, and
> rarely to the 'enemy').
> 
> They're two sides of the same coin, but people can't seem to get 
past the
> 'cool' packaging on Sirius to see that. Great, he loves Harry and 
the like,
> very commendable--but look at how he treats Kreacher! Is it any 
wonder the
> house elf turns on him?  He bullied other kids(not just Snape) in 
school
> because he *could* bully them, right along with James--Lupin even 
admits to
> that. He baits Snape in OotP (and yes, Snape baits right back, but 
the point
> is Snape is not the *only* 'adult' engaging in immature behaivior 
in the
> scene! Talk about immature--he still holds onto old grudges that 
shouldn't
> even matter anymore! Geez, Sirius, just walk away for gods sake!) 
but does
> that get acknowledged? No. Somehow, Sirius is 'okay' with what he 
does
> according to the audience...Snape? Nope. No go. Total ass, so he 
*must* be
> the only person 'wrong' in this scenario.
> 
>  So to me, it isn't that I think Snape is all wonderful...it's that 
I think
> people dump *all* the nasty crap on *him* and refuse to see that 
other
> characters have some of the same faults--including the 
beloved 'good guys'.
> Just because we haven't seen Snape with a loved one, doens't mean 
he's
> incapable of the same caring acts that Sirius has exhibited towards 
Harry.
> What it means is that we haven't seen who Snape cares about in that 
way yet.
> Same thing with his 'immature' reactions. Okay, so he freaks out. 
So does
> Sirius, sometimes with as little cause
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that Rowling has hinted that Snape *may* (--this 
word is here
> for those of you who think Snape is not the boy in those pensieve 
scenes)
> was abused as a child himself. Okay, so now he has a tie to Harry 
in being
> another abused child--but one that it seems did not get 'rescued' 
from his
> life like Sirius and Harry did...and you don't think that affected 
him as
> much as the Dursely's affected Harry, or Azkaban affected Sirius? 
No? Sirius
> is just as much an adult as Severus, with the same capabilities to 
think out
> his actions despite his feelings before he reacts (which is what 
everyone is
> expecting Severus to do, without fail, if he's ever to 'redeem' 
himself in
> their eyes), but that doesn't stop Sirius from engaging in violent,
> thoughtless, immature acts any more than it stops Severus. But hey, 
it;'s
> Sirius...so it must be okay.
> 
> Hypocracy yet again!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I actaully like Harry *and* Sirius, for all 
that I tend
> to unload on them when subjects like this come up...but the thing 
is, I'm
> unloading because someone somewhere seems to have forgotten that 
Severus
> shares a lot of the same experinces that those two characters have 
had. Yes,
> Severus grew up shaped differently than they did, he isn't all 
light and
> sweetness. Then again, it would seem he didn't get the same 'outs' 
along the
> way as he was growing up, so it isn't like he had similar chances 
to apply
> himself towards 'changing his attitude' to a more positive one. So 
to me,
> it's no wonder he's the way he is...and yes, because of it, I have 
a harder
> time condemning him than those who have 'huge issues' with him and 
how he
> acts. I suppose my stance is this:
> 
> If you can give Harry a break because he's 'young and has lost 
everything'.
> And you can forgive Sirius's faults because 'he went through hell 
and has
> been in Azkaban'
> 
> Then, at least try to give Snape a little credit for not being as 
bad as he
> could have been, considering his own life experiences (what we know 
of them)
> 
> Quite frankly, if that he was the boy in the pensieve (and I do 
indeed
> beleive he was), then he came from an abusive household--one that 
likely was
> a Dark Wizard household since he arrived at Hogwarts already 
knowing Dark
> Art spells. He then went on to be an unpopular kid at school, 
definetly
> picked on by the 'In' crowd (the Marauders), and therefore, as is 
usual in
> such situations, probably by other kids as well who would have 
followed the
> Marauder's lead, and then finally on to being a DE--and from little 
we've
> seen of THAT culture, it's not exactly a gentle balm to the soul to 
be part
> of that little clique either. One little mess up and old Voldy 
really takes
> a few chunks out of you.
> 
> Now, add to that as he 'grows up', walking away from the DE to join 
the good
> guys--getting marked as a 'bad guy' anyway during a trial (Dumbly 
may have
> gotten him out of that mess, but it likely Tarnished Snape's rep 
for good,
> no matter what he does now), having to essentially lie to your 
former
> 'friends' in order to do your job and help your new 'friends' and
> allies...and so on and so forth. It may not be as spectacular to 
watch, but
> it leaves a scar just as deep (if not deeper) than the ones Harry 
and Sirius
> carry around.
> 
> And yes, he gets harsh with Harry--I won't deny that. I *do* have 
trouble
> calling it abuse for two reasons--one, I'm a survivor of the RL 
thing--both
> mental and physical. Two, for all the scathing nasty things Snape 
may do
> (and except for a thrown jar of cockraoches, it's all been easily 
ignored
> words and nothing else), it really does not affect Harry one bit, 
other than
> to make him hate Snape. It's rather hard to be abused when it has 
no affect.
> Harry sure as hell doesn't 'enable' Snape, so for me, it's not 
abuse.
> Annoying and pissy, yes, but not abusive.
> 
> Anyway, sorry if I went off, but I feel that really, the viewpoint 
is rather
> lopsided. It's a lot easier to relate to the children and heros of 
the
> story...far far harder to relate to the pissy, underdog 'antihero'. 
I just
> wish more people were willing to give as much for Snape as they are 
for
> Sirius, Harry, any of the others.
> 
> In other words, try using Lupin's view and see it a little 
differently...and
> with a little compassion for *all* the players...
> 
> Silverthorne/Anne
> **Spazzing while Defending the Snark. Sorry for the tirade...^^;**
> 
> 
> 

Hi, Anne! 
Missed talking to you.
I think you know what I think about Snape by now, but something in 
your post made me want to ellaborate a little bit.

Let's summarise briefly. Yes, despite the fact that those three share 
similar traits, I will excuse Harry, because he is a teenager, 
etc....:o)

Yes, I think that limiting the bullying to grown-ups makes it less 
despicable, sort of.. Due to the fact that those grown-ups can hit 
back and children, let's say not always are allowed to hit (hex, 
curse, whatever) their professors. :o)

I love Snape and Sirius bugging each other. They are the same size, 
they can take it. :)


The point I wanted to make. Yes, the fact that Sirius loves Harry is 
a huge plus in my book. Never mind about him hating certain potion 
professors, hear me out for a second, Ok?

You said that just because we don't see Snape with a loved one, does 
not mean that he can't love? Well, after OoP that is exactly how I 
feel - I don't see Snape being capable of love. In fact I don't see 
him being capable feeling anything else, but hate. Surely, this hate 
is manifested towards Harry and Sirius, but we mainly see Snape 
interacting with them.

I am not a cynical person at all and for me to be able to feel 
something for the character said character should be able to express 
some positive emotions.

Yes, Sirius loves certain people  and hates others, but frankly I am 
amased that after the Azkaban he is still capable of feeling love to 
ANYBODY and I love him for that, not for some "cool package" What did 
you mean by that, by the way? :o)

Sirius is a broken, hurting man, who would greatly benefit (as many 
HP characters, IMO) from spending many hours with the psychologist. 
Yes, I give him a break, because I see him as a character, who is 
capable to feel some positive things and yes, because he loves my 
favourite character. Harry sure needs that.

Just realised that I keep talking about Sirius in the present tense. 
Well,  never mind. :)


I know that there is a chance of learning that Snape loved one time. 
Well I for once will be very happy to learn that, but so far yes, I 
will defend Harry and Sirius much more.


Alla