Re: Harry enjoying his friends’ pain (was: Harry's disposition)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 94640

Neri wrote:

> IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends' 
> pain.
> 
> Add to this that in the MoM battle, Harry fails to crucio 
> Bellatrix because, according to her, he is only feeling "righteous 
> anger", and is unable to actually enjoy hurting somebody, even to 
> his friend's murderer. But he *was* enjoying hurting Ron and 
> Hermione at least twice in OotP. In fact, Bella had pinpointed 
> exactly the distinction I'm clumsily trying to make here: Before 
> OotP Harry was sometimes (rarely) feeling "righteous anger" at his 
> friends, but in OotP he enjoys hurting them.

Del :
I still disagree with you, I'm afraid :-) I'll try and show you that 
what Harry felt all throughout the year towards his friends 
was "righteous anger", and that he enjoyed seeing them hurt only 
because he felt this was just *punishment* for their acts which made 
him hurt first.

> OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
> 'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather
> breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
> 'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the
> marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.

Del :
That was righteous anger : he's not sorry because in his idea 
Hermione deserved to be punished, for letting him in the dark. 
Moreover, it doesn't say that he's enjoying it, he's just not sorry.

> OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
> 'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
> hotly. 'Won't — won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
> eyes.
> For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
> tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
> the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
> they looked at each other.
> 'Course I will,' Harry said.

Del :
That's righteous anger again. Harry just wants to make Ron walk in 
his (Harry's) shoes. He wants to punish Ron. And again, there's no 
indication of pleasure, only of revenge/punishment.

> OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
> 'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron
> sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to 
> trust Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working 
> for You- Know-Who?'
> 'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he
> doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
> 'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened
> his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry
> and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're 
> always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.' And 
> abandoning his shepherd's pie, he swung his schoolbag back over 
> his shoulder and left them sitting there.
> He walked up the marble staircase two steps at a time, past the
> many students hurrying towards lunch. The anger that had just 
> flared so unexpectedly still blazed inside him, and the vision of 
> Ron and Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep 
> satisfaction.
> Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . .
> bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the
> wall . . .

Del :
Once again, this is perfectly righteous anger. Harry already has too 
much on his mind, and instead of trying and helping him, his friends 
only add to his burdens. Instead on focusing on him and his needs at 
they pretended they would or as he thinks they should, they keep 
enjoying their own little private war, when they know perfectly well 
that it annoys him to no end (not to mention that it puts him on the 
side, which is hurtful). So it's "natural" he punishes them. They 
bother him, he bothers them. And he's satisfied (no pleasure, once 
again) because he obviously attained his goal.

> OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
> 'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione 
> said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep 
> again last night.'
> Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
> of himself.
> 'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
> apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
> 'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
> brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
> grab the Quaffle.'
> Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
> had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.

Del :
Again, Harry only wants to punish Ron for blabbing on him. Ron 
deeply betrayed him (in Harry's idea) by revealing a moment of 
weakness to Hermione (behind his back too !), so he wants to remind 
Ron that Ron has got weaknesses too. You hurt me, I hurt you. And he 
takes pleasure in it in contrast to the deep pain he just felt when 
he discovered Ron betrayed him.

> OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810
>     'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she 
> yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean 
> them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it —
> righteous anger won't hurt me for long — I'll show you how it is 
> done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson — '

Del :
Please notice that she doesn't say that righteous anger can't make 
the Curse work : it just won't make it last for long. And the reason 
for it is simple : righteous anger seeks punishment and only 
punishment. Once the punishment is attained, righteous anger dies. 
It's just like when my kid annoys me a bit too much, and I yell at 
him in "righteous anger", and he starts crying. For a few fleeting 
seconds, I'm deeply satisfied (serves you well), but then my anger 
subsides because the punishment is attained, and I'm left with my 
baby crying. What I feel then is everything from pain to remorse, 
but certainly not anger, and most definitely not a further desire to 
hurt him !!
In order to keep the Curse working, you have to want to make people 
suffer *for no fault of theirs at all and even though they are in 
pain* ! In order to make Crucio work, you have to get to the point 
that you can *enjoy* torturing anyone *for a prolonged time without 
any reason at all*. Harry hasn't done anything like that at all. He 
never ever came up to Ron and start telling him out of the blue how 
bad he is at Quidditch and then how ridiculous he looked in his 
dress robes at the Yule Ball and then how much money there's in 
Harry's vault but Harry will never give it to Ron, all the while 
watching Ron go from hurt to shame to pain to pleading Harry to 
please please stop ! (As for Hermione, Harry had an easy way to hurt 
her : tell her that Dobby collected her hats. He never did it.)

The only times Harry willfully hurt his friends and took some kind 
of pleasure or satisfaction in it is when he felt he was only 
punishing them, getting some kind of revenge on them. And that's a 
VERY human reaction, boy do I know about it :-) !! (Unless you mean 
I'm being possessed by an evil spirit ? ;-)

Del