Re: Harry enjoying his friends’ pain (was: Harry's disposition)

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 94678

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" <delwynmarch at y...>
wrote:
> Neri wrote:
> 
> > IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends' 
> > pain.
> > 
> > Add to this that in the MoM battle, Harry fails to crucio 
> > Bellatrix because, according to her, he is only feeling "righteous 
> > anger", and is unable to actually enjoy hurting somebody, even to 
> > his friend's murderer. But he *was* enjoying hurting Ron and 
> > Hermione at least twice in OotP. In fact, Bella had pinpointed 
> > exactly the distinction I'm clumsily trying to make here: Before 
> > OotP Harry was sometimes (rarely) feeling "righteous anger" at his 
> > friends, but in OotP he enjoys hurting them.
> 
> Del :
> I still disagree with you, I'm afraid :-) I'll try and show you that 
> what Harry felt all throughout the year towards his friends 
> was "righteous anger", and that he enjoyed seeing them hurt only 
> because he felt this was just *punishment* for their acts which made 
> him hurt first.
> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
> > 'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather
> > breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
> > 'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the
> > marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.
> 
> Del :
> That was righteous anger : he's not sorry because in his idea 
> Hermione deserved to be punished, for letting him in the dark. 
> Moreover, it doesn't say that he's enjoying it, he's just not sorry.

Annemehr:
Not only that, but Harry didn't even send Hedwig to *punish* them, he
sent her out of desperation to get some information.  Hedwig was
supposed to peck them until they wrote back, which they never did. 
And don't forget, at the time he sent her, Harry had no idea when he
might be rescued from Privet Drive; it already felt like forever to
him.  So when he saw the marks on Ron and Hermione's hands, at least
part of what he felt may have been that at least Hedwig had remained
loyal to him.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
> > 'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
> > hotly. 'Won't — won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
> > eyes.
> > For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
> > tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
> > the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
> > they looked at each other.
> > 'Course I will,' Harry said.
> 
> Del :
> That's righteous anger again. Harry just wants to make Ron walk in 
> his (Harry's) shoes. He wants to punish Ron. And again, there's no 
> indication of pleasure, only of revenge/punishment.

Annemehr:
And that time, Harry didn't even *act* on his righteous anger; it
didn't even last long enough.  And compare these two situations. 
Dumbledore forbid Ron and Hermione to tell Harry anything, and they
complied.  Here, Molly wanted to forbid her own son Ron learning
anything about the Order, and *right in front of her,* Harry announced
his intention to fill Ron in.  So, far from taking any revenge beyond
his earlier shouting, Harry resolved to treat Ron as he would have
liked Ron to have treated him.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
> > 'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron
> > sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to 
> > trust Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working 
> > for You- Know-Who?'
> > 'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he
> > doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
> > 'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened
> > his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry
> > and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're 
> > always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.'[...]
 and the vision of 
> > Ron and Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep 
> > satisfaction.
> > Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . .
> > bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the
> > wall . . .
> 
> Del :
> Once again, this is perfectly righteous anger. Harry already has too 
> much on his mind, and instead of trying and helping him, his friends 
> only add to his burdens.<snip>

Annemehr:
It is not often remarked upon, especially compared to the notice taken
of Harry's ill temper, but Ron and Hermione argue *a lot* in OoP. 
Hermione is especially hard on Ron, whenever she says "Voldemort" or
when Ron ventures an opinion on something.  Maybe Harry's deep
satisfaction had something to do with their sudden silence which was
such a relief that he didn't care how he'd achieved it.  And Harry's
"Can't you give it a rest?" seems very analogous to Hermione's "We're
on you side, Harry, so would you please stop jumping down our
throats?" (paraphrased), and whenever Hermione says that, at least
Harry is ashamed of himself.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
> > 'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione 
> > said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep 
> > again last night.'
> > Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
> > of himself.
> > 'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
> > apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
> > 'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
> > brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
> > grab the Quaffle.'
> > Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
> > had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.
> 
> Del :
> Again, Harry only wants to punish Ron for blabbing on him. Ron 
> deeply betrayed him (in Harry's idea) by revealing a moment of 
> weakness to Hermione (behind his back too !), so he wants to remind 
> Ron that Ron has got weaknesses too. You hurt me, I hurt you. And he 
> takes pleasure in it in contrast to the deep pain he just felt when 
> he discovered Ron betrayed him.

Annemehr:
What Del said.
> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810
> >     'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she 
> > yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean 
> > them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it —
> > righteous anger won't hurt me for long — I'll show you how it is 
> > done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson — '
> 
> Del :
> Please notice that she doesn't say that righteous anger can't make 
> the Curse work : it just won't make it last for long. And the reason 
> for it is simple : righteous anger seeks punishment and only 
> punishment. Once the punishment is attained, righteous anger dies. 
> It's just like when my kid annoys me a bit too much, and I yell at 
> him in "righteous anger", and he starts crying. For a few fleeting 
> seconds, I'm deeply satisfied (serves you well), but then my anger 
> subsides because the punishment is attained, and I'm left with my 
> baby crying. What I feel then is everything from pain to remorse, 
> but certainly not anger, and most definitely not a further desire to 
> hurt him !!
> In order to keep the Curse working, you have to want to make people 
> suffer *for no fault of theirs at all and even though they are in 
> pain* ! In order to make Crucio work, you have to get to the point 
> that you can *enjoy* torturing anyone *for a prolonged time without 
> any reason at all*. Harry hasn't done anything like that at all. He 
> never ever came up to Ron and start telling him out of the blue how 
> bad he is at Quidditch and then how ridiculous he looked in his 
> dress robes at the Yule Ball and then how much money there's in 
> Harry's vault but Harry will never give it to Ron, all the while 
> watching Ron go from hurt to shame to pain to pleading Harry to 
> please please stop ! (As for Hermione, Harry had an easy way to hurt 
> her : tell her that Dobby collected her hats. He never did it.)

Annemehr:
I couldn't snip this, because I think Del put it so perfectly.

Del:
> The only times Harry willfully hurt his friends and took some kind 
> of pleasure or satisfaction in it is when he felt he was only 
> punishing them, getting some kind of revenge on them. And that's a 
> VERY human reaction, boy do I know about it :-) !! (Unless you mean 
> I'm being possessed by an evil spirit ? ;-)

Annemehr:
Yes, indeed.  And I also have to wonder about what Dumbledore said,
about Voldemort's great talent for spreading discord and enmity,
because Harry is cetainly not the only one to go all fratchety in this
book (though he does have the best excuse IMO).  I'm not asserting
that Voldemort is magically affecting their tempers; it could be just
the stress and worry he causes along with the ripple effect everyone's
responses have on each other.  Things are going to get even worse, so
they'll *all* have to learn to master themselves.

Annemehr
who agrees with Del more often than not, and hopes she didn't press
her argument too far in their last go-around