Lupin's mind powers was Re: DD and the rat: Conspiracy theories compared [LONG]

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 117187


Carol earlier:
> > But I didn't mean to get into an anti-conspiracy theory 
> discussion again. I'm only wondering what evidence you have 
> that Lupin has talent as a Legilimens.<
> 
> Pippin responded:
> 
> All references PoA:
> 
>  In chapter 8, Lupin believes that Harry's boggart would have 
> been Voldemort,   although Harry himself has forgotten that he 
> thought of Voldemort first.

Carol again:
Thanks, Pippin. But wouldn't the thought that Harry's boggart was
Voldemort be just a natural assumption? I think Snape or McGonagall or
any non Legilimens would have assumed the same thing. (And Snape may
have assumed that Neville's boggart would be a DE, also terrifying for
the class. Unfortunately for him, it turned out to be himself!)
> 

> In chapter 10, Harry is unable to ask his question about why 
> dementors affect him so strongly, but Lupin answers it, "as 
> though he had read Harry's mind."
> 
> In chapter 17, Lupin is shown "staring so intently at Black it 
> seemed he was trying to read his mind." 

Carol:
Yes. We have similar statements regarding Snape, but no solid evidence
of Legilimency (beyond Snape's Legilimens spell) for either of them.
And of course, we also have the unreliable narrator, who as usual is
giving us Harry's perception rather than fact. Note "as though" and
"seemed" in the quotes.
> 
Pippin:
> There are also  hints that Lupin is an Occlumens.
> 
> In chapter 14, Lupin's face assumes an "odd, closed" 
> expression as he contemplates the map. 
> 
> In chapter 19, Snape says, "Don't ask me to fathom the way a 
> werewolf's mind works."
> 
> Granted none of that is proof, but now that we know some 
> characters have mind powers, is it really far-fetched to suppose 
> that the text hints that Lupin is one of them? "Odd, closed" 
> seems especially obvious.
> 
Carol:
Hm. I agree that Lupin is guarding his secrets closely, hence the
closed expression, but not that he's using Occlumency to hide them
from Harry, who is not a Legilimens and can't detect Lupin's emotions
or see his memories (the connection with Voldemort is different and
not yet fully in effect). As for Snape's werewolf comment, he's just
being Snape, spiteful and angry at the moment. The earlier scene with
the Marauder's Map, where both Lupin and Snape are being cagey and
concealing the MWPP connection from Harry, shows that he and Lupin
understand one another quite well. I don't think there's any need for
either of them to use Occlumency or Legilimency, just what they know
about each other communicated in a way that outsiders, including
Harry, will not understand.

As I said earlier, if Lupin knew Occlumency, I doubt very much that he
would have told Harry that Snape is a superb Occlumens. He would have
offered to teach Harry himself, finding some way to get around the
werewolf, erm, inconvenience. Or Sirius would have volunteered Lupin's
services instead of offering the unhelpful suggestion that Snape might
try to harm Harry.

AFAWK, Occlumency is a rare talent and Legilimency even rarer. Snape
is an Occlumens, Voldy is a Legilimens, DD is certainly a Legilimens
and probably an Occlumens as well. (IMO, it makes much more sense for
him to be Snape's teacher than for Voldy to teach any DE a skill that
could be used against him.)

Anyway, thanks for presenting your evidence. I'm inclined to be
skeptical--not at all through Faith in the narrator as the Voice of
the Author but from a profound distrust in his or her *limited*
omniscience, which I see as a very shaky basis for conspiracy theories
or speculation. I think we need to choose our evidence very carefully,
speech and actions that don't depend on Harry's perception. And even
then, as the incident with the broken vial shows, we're still
supplying omitted actions not supplied by the narrator that suit our 
own preconceptions of Snape. No doubt we do the same thing for Lupin
and Black and Pettigrew and HRH and Dumbledore.

Carol, noting here even though it's the wrong thread that not everyone
is a fan of Time-Turning theories!