Occlumency: Relax or resist? (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 29, Career Ad

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 117503


<entire post snipped by Lupinlore>
> > Carol, hoping that the canon citations are sufficient to support
and validate her point
> 
Lupinlore wrote:
> No Carol, I'm afraid they are not.  The canon citations you make are 
> sufficient to show that, under Snape's tutelage, Harry finally 
> managed *something*.  That isn't, in and of itself, particularly 
> impressive nor does it necessarily speak well of Snape's teaching 
> methods.
<snip argument by analogy with no reference to canon>

> There is also another way of interpreting the references you have 
> given, which is that Snape partially succeeds in spite of himself. I 
> have no doubt that the methods Snape uses are those he thinks are 
> effective.  However, if ever there was a hypocrite it is him.  Clear 
> your mind of emotion?  His mind is so choked and clogged by emotion 
> that it has warped his entire life! 
> 
> Indeed, although Snape is a Master Occlumens, I wonder if he 
> understands Occlumency very well.  I suspect he is a natural at 
> Occlumency, but not for the reasons he believes.  Perhaps in the end 
> Occlumency doesn't require clearing your mind, but martialing strong 
> and violent emotion in its defense.  Snape is so constantly in the 
> grip of emotion that he fools himself into thinking that he is 
> clearing his mind and mastering himself when in fact all he is doing 
> is deploying his perpetual rage and bitterness as a shield.  It
would help explain the difference between Snape's instruction to
*clear your mind* and Dumbledore's observation that Harry will be
saved by his emotions.

Carol responds:
Lupinlore, you aren't citing canon of your own here, and you're not
answering my arguments or even quoting them. All you've quoted is my
closing, followed by your own generalizations with no indication of
how they relate to my argument. Your assertion that you're afraid my
canon-based examples don't validate my argument is not very convincing
under the circumstances.

Rather than generalizing about Snape's inability to master his
emotions, you might look at those instances when he *does* succeed.
I'll come back to your arguments and answer them if you'll go upthread
and actually examine mine (rather than snipping them) and present
canon of your own to counter my quotations.

If we could eliminate the concept of martial-arts based relaxation, it
would help to eliminate a great deal of confusion. No analogies,
please; let's just consider whether *resistance*--which is what Snape
is asking Harry to do--might not be exactly what Occlumency requires. 

Again, if you want to persuade me that I'm mistaken, you can't just
snip my arguments and sweep them all away with your own opinion. You
have to actually answer them using canon and logic. (Analogies don't
prove anything and are in fact a logical fallacy.)

Carol