Occlumency: Relax or resist? (Was: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 29, Career Ad

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 118096


Carol (earlier): 
> > <entire post snipped by Lupinlore>
> > If we could eliminate the concept of martial-arts based
relaxation, it would help to eliminate a great deal of confusion. No
analogies, please;
> 
Lupinlore responded:
> Why not?  After all, argument from analogy is often insightful and 
> quite useful.  I grant you it has its flaws, but so do all argument 
> forms.

Carol (earlier): 
> > Again, if you want to persuade me that I'm mistaken, you can't
just snip my arguments and sweep them all away with your own opinion. 
> 
Lupinlore responded:
> I think we are talking past each other here, Carol.  I'm not trying 
> to persuade anyone that they are mistaken.  As I believe Kneasy has 
> observed, if you look at the history of discussion threads on this 
> list, particularly with regard to Snape, almost no one changes their 
> mind about anything (Siriusly Snapey Susan being about the only 
> exception).  The only person who ever moves anyone is JKR herself, 
> and I suspect that is the case in this instance.  Until she issues as 
> definitive ruling, if she ever does, those of us who believe Snape 
> was a semi-hysterical, hypocritical sadist in Occlumency will not be 
> phased by any number of quotes or argumentation, and the same goes 
> for those who have a more positive view of him.
>
Carol (earlier): 
> You have to actually answer them using canon and logic. (Analogies
don't prove anything and are in fact a logical fallacy.)
> 
> Oh, of course analogies are a valid way of arguing.  As I said above, 
> they have their weakness, but so do all argument forms, including 
> those based on quotes, which after all may be taken out of context, 
> misinterpreted, or otherwise misused in any number of ways.
> 
> So, to answer you in the same vein that you answered me, if you don't 
> find what I said persuasive, I'm not at all surprised, as I wasn't 
> trying to persuade you.  If you don't like analogies and prefer 
> quotes, that is of course your right.  However, please, and I mean 
> this politely, don't expect everyone on this list to conform to your 
> ideas of what an argument should or should not look like.
> 

Carol responds:
I was only objection to your sweeping assertion that I was wrong and
to your snipping my entire post without answering my arguments.
Analogies, while useful to clarify or illustrate a point, can't prove
the point because the two things being compared (martial arts and
Occlumency, Voldemort and Hitler, etc.) are not identical. The only
evidence we have to support our points is the text itself (canon).
That's what we do on this list--present an argument or a theory,
support it with canon, and seek responses to it. If you are unwilling
to examine the evidence for fear that it will contradict your view of
Snape, that of course is your privilege. I ask only that if you're
going to argue that my canon support is inadequate that you produce
your own canon support to oppose it. Fair is fair, and there is really
no other way to discuss a literary work than to examine the text of
that work.

In any case, please don't assume that I'm wrong just because you
disagree with me, and please have the courtesy not to snip my entire
post (or anyone else's), because the post becomes lost when you do so
and no one else has a chance to respond to it. My apologies for saying
that you "have to" do such and such; what I meant was that a valid
argument requires that its points be supported by evidence and that
the counterarguments presented by the other side be fairly and
completely answered, not labeled incorrect and snipped away.

Carol, who taught college composition and literary analysis for
eighteen years and really does know what constitutes a valid argument