Unfortunate!Peter

[Barry Arrowsmith]

No: HPFGUIDX 118273

Comments on two responses in this one.
Let's start  with charme:
Lotsa snips
 >
First, I have to say I love your posts, Kneasy.  Most of the time I 
read them and say, "the man has a good point and thinks way out of the 
box."
This time though, I have a different opinion and hope that you'll 
accept it as such. :)
 >

Kneasy:
Way out of the box?
There's some out there that think I'm way out of my skull.
Glad you enjoy them and IMO it's differing opinions that makes life 
entertaining.

 >charme:
There is a quote from Petunia which may apply here. In OoP, Petunia 
refers to that "awful boy" telling Lily about Azkaban and the 
Dementors. I know a lot of people believe that's referring to Snape, 
but I believe it's referring to Peter.
 >

Kneasy:
Peter as Lothario - is that your meaning?
If Peter ever went to the Evans/Dursley establishment (do we know if it 
  happened before Petunia married Vernon?) then I'd have expected him to 
be one of a group. No confirmation of course, that'd make things too 
easy.

There's an interesting aspect to this little aside - why would anyone 
want to  talk to Petunia about Azkaban? Hardly a subject for polite 
conversation over  tea and cakes - unless, as I posted a few weeks ago 
Harry's grandparents died as a result of Voldy/DE action.

 > charme:
I think it was James who told DD about the incident in the Shrieking 
Shack after he'd saved Snape.  Furthermore, I think at the end of PoA, 
Snape is furious Sirius is missing and flips out reminding DD that 
Sirius tried to kill him (re: Whomping Willow incident).  This in my 
mind means at some point in the past, DD and Snape have discussed this 
before.
 >

Kneasy:
I don't  see it that way.
Snape enters the tunnel, sees a werewolf, gets dragged out by James -  
what would he  do? Scream his head off, I'd imagine, "Werewolf!" It'd 
be round the school  in 5 minutes flat. But it wasn't. Snape has no 
reason to keep  quiet and every reason to tell everybody what he's 
seen. He doesn't. To me that implies there was somebody on the spot to 
tell  him to keep quiet, calm down, let's go to my office. Who  else 
but DD?


 > charme:
If that's the case, Peter would have told DD about them becoming 
animagi and he didn't. DD professes not to know about in PoA and seems 
rather impressed they *did* keep it from him. And yes, I do believe 
they did keep it from
him. Peter is weak, and Sirius points out that Peter migrates to 
whatever wizard is the strongest for protection.  Peter himself admits 
there was nothing to be gained by refusing LV. One week it could be 
James, another Sirius, another LV.  That's not "spy" material, IMO 
that's weakness.
 >

Kneasy:
What DD admits to knowing and what he actually knows are two very 
different things IMO. I just can't envision him locking up a 
student/werewolf in an isolated shack every month and not checking up 
on him, keeping an eye on him. And one very good way of doing so  is to 
  have someone in the Marauders keeping him up to date with what they 
were up to. Peter.
As for gravitating to the strongest - who's stronger  than DD? No, I 
suspect  that this is Sirius sour grapes; he's second fiddle to  James. 
He accepts it but it doesn't mean he likes it, especially when a 
nonentity like Peter rubs it in by fawning on James and ignoring 
Sirius.

 > >
2. Scabbers vanishes into the sewers. Right. Then what? Where does he > 
 > go? Who does he see? Want a suggestion?
OK - Dumbledore.
 > >

 > charme:
How about another suggestion or two?  Lucius Malfoy or even Fudge, as 
Fudge was the first person on the scene after Peter's suppposed demise. 
I could also think of others Peter could have gone to, so DD isn't the 
only one.
 >

Kneasy:
At the time Fudge wasn't important in the Ministry. Unless he's a 
secret DE he'd have no reason to hide Peter. If he was a DE then the 
same arguments apply as to Malfoy:  if Peter had gone to either then 
it's unlikely that the DEs later  caught after the Longbottoms were 
tortured would believe Peter to  be dead -  they'd know he wasn't. 
Malfoy has no reason to keep it from them and if he thought that Peter 
had betrayed Voldy  then Peter  would have become a stain on the carpet 
in short order.

 > charme:
How about Peter was "stuck"? In canon, the point is made that 
specifically that the Animagi state can be dangerous and that's why the 
Ministry, and Hogwarts, are so sensitive to transformations like it.
 >

Kneasy:
A  possibility.
I always try and keep a close watch on seemingly throw-away lines from 
JKR; I believe they're there for a reason.


 > charme:
I don't think this is the mystery you do.  Hagrid is overwhelming a 
lover of animals and if he saw a rat, he wouldn't kill it, he'd feed it 
and take care of it. In other words, the similiarity there exists with 
Peter again being protected by the "biggest and strongest," just in a 
different sense.
 >

Kneasy:
Ah. I  don't think you  see what  I was getting at.
Scabbers has been around the school for years.
How likely is it that Hagrid wouldn't recognise him?
So why  didn't he wander up to Ron "'ere. I got your rat in my hut"? 
Because I think Hagrid is  deeper in DD's councils than we suspect. He 
may be a gofer, but even gofers  can have sensitive information. If DD  
knows who  Scabbers is I'd not be surprised if Hagrid did too.


 > charme:
I think Peter is the ultimate "flip flopper." In PoA, he admits he did 
tell LV where the Potters were, and refers to LV's powers and that LV 
would kill him had he not done as he was told. He does not deny he was 
spying for LV for a full year before James and Lily were killed.  If 
that's not bad enough, Peter uses the logic that LV was taking over 
everywhere, what was to
be gained by refusing him? I think there's only 2 options here, either 
Peter started out with the idea of spying for the Order and got sucked 
in or he got recruited by LV and his followers and couldn't resist. I 
don't think he's DD's eyes and ears any longer, though. He's sealed his 
fate by the choices he made.
 >

Kneasy:
Oh,  there's always possible alternatives.
It's possible to interpret the Prophecy to mean that the Potters *must* 
die to produce the one with the power to defeat Voldy.
Would DD  sacrifice James and Lily to produce Weapon!Harry  and win? 
Yes; I think he would. Better a few deaths now than thousands later. 
Sad but true. In which  case Peter was doing what DD needed to be done.

Now azriona:
 >
Disinterested?  Are we sure?  I've always felt that those Pensieve 
scenes, while they may show more than the person to whom the memory 
belongs, are still influenced by that person.
The same with the other Pensieve scenes.  We saw the Wizengamot trials 
from Dumbledore's viewpoint, with Dumbledore's specific memories.  And 
the image of Bertha Jorkins that pops out is how *Dumbledore* saw her - 
and is certainly part of a larger memory which he chooses not to share.

(Appropros to nothing, I always figured that the boy Bertha was
talking about was Peter.  But that's just me.  And I half wonder that 
he wasn't the one eavesdropping on Trelawney's Lost Prophecy as well.  
But I am a great Peter Conspiratist, and tend to see him everywhere.)
 >

Kneasy:
I see(!) it slightly differently.
In the trials memory Harry sits beside DD but never tries to move 
around as he does in Snape's memory. So he does, by chance or by 
choice, see the whole thing as an observer with DD's viewpoint. But I 
submit  that if he had moved he'd have seen or heard things not 
noticeable from DD's seat - just as he did in Snape's memory.

Bertha and Sybill are censored memories. Where's DD for a start? was 
anyone else present? DD uses it to show that part of a memory he wants 
others to see and can (does?) suppress other parts.

For myself, Bertha was talking about Snape who married Florence and 
produced the crying child we see in his memory flash.

 >azirona:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have a solid time frame at one 
point?  I could have sworn The Prank happened in their fifth
year...but to go back to the Pensieve Scene, I sort of doubt that it
occured before their OWLs (I would think that Sirius would have
steered clear of Severus after he tried to kill him).

Because of that scene, I feel fairly confident now (and certain this 
has been discused to death elsewhere) that The Prank happened in sixth 
year.  I don't think it would have happened before the Pensieve Scene, 
and therefore could not have happened before the boys mastered the 
Animagi spell.  I don't think it could have happened in 7th year,  
because as prefect, Remus was on the fast track to becoming Head Boy.  
There had to be a reason for James to get Head Boy and not Remus.
 >

Kneasy:
Timings are difficult - because we still run up against that awkward 
question - why did Sevvy  ask Sirius about Lupin and why did he believe 
the answer if Grey Underwear happened before the Prank? I even 
highlighted this by means of a suggestion for the exchange that might 
have taken place (post 105755)


 > azirona:
There are as many motivations as there are stars in the sky.
Blackmail, torture, ransom, cash reward, fear, love, resentment,
reason (I mean, maybe Peter really did think Voldy was right), or
even the idea that Peter has been working for DD since the first day  
at school.
 >

Kneasy:
Yes, there are. How many would apply to Peter, particularly if he got 
into DD's clutches while still at school? Only  two that I can think of 
-  idealism and fear. And I don't trust idealists.

 > azirona:
If you're asking me where I think Peter's loyalties lie...honestly, I
have to say with himself.  He's the only person who he hasn't turned 
his back on at any point in the books.  Peter's number one goal these 
days, it seems, is simply to make it out alive.
 >

Kneasy:
Reasonable, logical... and I suspect not. Too many hints that he has an 
important role to play, probably something involving Harry and 
therefore not a situation where he need stick his neck out. He could do 
the Igor bit "Yes master! Of course Master!" and spend his evenings 
polishing his knuckles, eventually going down the pan with the rest of 
the losers. Somehow I expect more entertainment from our Peter.