bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 118410


 "Clare Durina" wrote:
snip

 I have been feeling indignant at the
> popular characterization of James and Sirius as bullies and the 
twins as well. Being "cool" does not make one bad, and being enviably
> attractive or talented does not make one vindicive. I think that
> they were immature, carried-away boys.

Potioncat:
Welcome to the group.

I don't think any one says James and Sirius were popular, therefore 
they were bullies.  But you know, being popular and good looking 
doesn't excuse you from being a bully. In the Pensieve scene, as 
written and in the follow up conversation between Harry, Black and 
Lupin, it is clear that the Marauders were picking on Snape.  It is 
also clear from what Lily says, that James picked on other 
kids, "Hexing people in the hall, just because you can."  The 
shocker was that this news came to us (and Harry) after 4 books of 
hearing how great James was.

As for the Twins, they are very likable.  No doubt.  And it was 
funny that they shoved Montagu into that cabinet.  But he is still 
suffering brain damage at the end of the book, and no goes to 
Pomfrey to tell her what happened. I don't brain damage is a fair 
swap for a few house points.



Clare Durina:
 And while Sirius does have a
> mean streak, it just makes him a more complex and convincing
> character. 

Potioncat:
Sorry, I don't think having a mean streak is a virtue. (But I will 
say, that as a Snape fan, I can hardly blast you for liking Sirius 
and his mean streak since I like Snape and his.)

Clare Durina:
 Severus doesn't fit into
> that "innocent weak" mold- he was unpopular, but James and Sirius 
did
> not single him out for that; he was every bit as antagonistic as 
they
> were and his own character flaws were his downfall. 

Potioncat:
I don't think Severus was a sweet young man who never did anything 
wrong.  And I don't doubt that we'll find out that Severus and James 
often gave as good as they got.  But in this one scene, MWPP pick on 
him because they are bored. His character flaws was  his downfall?  
That's the kettle calling the cauldron rusty.  James and Sirius come 
over as pretty flawed too.

Clare Durina:
 After all, even as an adult he definitely
> sunk lower than Sirius with his disparaging remarks in OOP, just
> baiting Sirius for a fight. He also abuses his authority as a
> teacher, not only against James' son, but also with innocent,
> blundering Neville. Sirius didn't target innocent unpopular kids.

Potioncat:
I see it as Black baiting Snape.  Both characters come out looking 
like real idiots.

I can't really explain or defend Snape's teaching methods. I do 
think he is targeting Harry and Neville for a reason. (other than 
spite.)

Clare Durina:
> The same goes for Fred and George who will justify taking on real
> bullies, like Motague or Dudley, and putting them in their places,
> but would only protect Neville.

Potioncat:
I agree, I don't think F&G would pick on anyone.  But experimenting 
on first years wasn't very nice either. And I don't so much blame 
them for shoving Montagu into the cabinet, as I'm unhappy no one 
helped when it was realized how badly hurt he was.

Clare Durina:
> Here is another related point. I cannot agree that Wormtail was a
> nice guy who went astray due to low self-esteem after years of his
> cool friends' torment. He was never nice, and just like being 
strong
> and talented does not make one offensive, being weak or talentless
> does not make one innocent.

Potioncat:
Based on this one scene, Peter does not seem to have any redeeming 
values...of course, neither do James or Sirius.


> Clare Durina:
> I'm new to the group. I hope I'm not just bringing up already
> endlessly deliberated topics.

Again, welcome.  Actually, everything has been endlessly 
deliberated, but that doesn't stop us from going on.