bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 118430


Clare Durina wrote:
"Severus doesn't fit into that "innocent weak" mold- he was unpopular,
but James and Sirius did not single him out for that;"

Del replies :
Severus was unpopular because he was in the Dark Arts, which is also
the same reason James and Sirius picked on him. So no, technically
they didn't pick on him because he was unpopular, but the two issues
are strongly related nonetheless.

Clare Durina wrote:
"he was every bit as antagonistic as they were and his own character
flaws were his downfall. Envy, spitefulness, vengeance, etc. "

Del replies :
What downfall ??
If anyone had a downfall because of their flaws, it was Sirius and James.

Clare Durina wrote:
"If the tables had turned at some point and he had had friends to back
him up and James were alone, I believe he would have been much more
shamelessly ruthless with that upperhand than JP or SB ever were."

Del replies :
Could be, but as you pointed out, this is only your belief. In fact,
we do know that Snape belonged to a gang of Slytherins, but we haven't
yet heard that he did anything horrible to James with the help of that
gang.

Clare Durina wrote:
" After all, even as an adult he definitely sunk lower than Sirius
with his disparaging remarks in OOP, just baiting Sirius for a fight."

Del replies :
Except that when the fight does break out, it was Sirius who had done
the baiting, not Snape - twice, in fact : once at the beginning of the
discussion, and once again when Snape was actually leaving the room.
It's all in the Occlumency chapter.

Clare Durina wrote:
" He also abuses his authority as a teacher, not only against James'
son, but also with innocent, blundering Neville."

Del replies :
This one, we all pretty much agree on.

Clare Durina wrote:
" Sirius didn't target innocent unpopular kids."

Del replies :
Do we know that ?
We do know that James hexed anyone who "annoyed him". We can assume
that he had at least Sirius's acceptation, if not support or even
collaboration. It's just an assumption, but it's about as valid as
saying that Sirius didn't hex innocent kids.

Clare Durina wrote:
"I cannot agree that Wormtail was a nice guy who went astray due to
low self-esteem after years of his cool friends' torment."

Del replies :
You don't have to agree.

Clare Durina wrote:
" He was never nice,"

Del replies :
How do you know that ?
We don't know anything about young Peter, except what is in the
Pensieve scene and what his so-called friends thought of him.

Clare Durina wrote:
" and just like being strong and talented does not make one offensive,
being weak or talentless does not make one innocent."

Del replies :
Agreed.

Clare Durina wrote:
" Why should we feel for him?"

Del replies :
Why not ?? We are all free to feel for whoever we want. I personally
feel for young Tom Riddle. I know it's useless, but so what ?

Clare Durina wrote:
" Maybe too many of us "adult HP fans were unpopular as kids and are
drawing an illogical connection between Pettigrew and themselves. "

Del replies :
Maybe, maybe not. And who said the connection was illogical ? How do
we know that it isn't intentional, that JKR isn't deliberately trying
to make us connect with less-talented Peter who hero-worshipped his
friends ?

Clare Durina wrote:
"Otherwise, I can't see how this idea became so accepted among fans. "

Del replies :
It isn't. From what I can read, there are many more people despising
Peter than people defending him. I'm not on any side, for that matter.
I try to just wait and see, with eyes wide open.

Clare Durina wrote:
"Look in the "Snape's worst memory" chapter. He is detestable."

Del replies :
All the Marauders are detestable in that scene.

Clare Durina wrote:
" First he's trying to cheat of his neighbor's exam,"

Del replies :
So ? Harry wished he could read the answers in Parvati's head, does
that make him detestable ?

Clare Durina wrote:
"then outside he (besides all the pathetic stuff about watching James
and the snitch) looked forward to watching Snape teased with "avid
anticipation" and watched "hungrily" as Snape was laughed at,
"sniggering shrilly" himself and later "roaring with laughter"."

Del replies :
Sirius looked "like a dog that has scented a rabbit", before Peter
looked with "avid anticipation".
Some students looked "entertained" when Peter watched "hungrily".
"Several people watching laughed" when Peter "sniggered shrilly".
"Many people in the small crowd cheered" when "Sirius, James and
Wormtail roared with laughter".

You're not being very fair towards Peter in this scene. He's not doing
anything worse than some other students, including James and Sirius.

Clare Durina wrote:
" None of the marauders showed great morals in that scene, but
Wormtail sickened me the most."

Del replies :
That's your feelings, you're entitled to them, but nobody else has to
react the same way. Many do though. Including the narrator, who is IMO
obviously partial to Harry. For example, he calls Peter by his
diminutive nickname, Wormtail, while he calls all the other Marauders
by their first names. This is a problem we've already encountered in
other occasions, but it doesn't help in judging Peter. When the
narrator says that Peter was watching hungrily, or that he had an air
of avid anticipation, is this true, or is it the narrator, who doesn't
like Peter, projecting his own dislike of Peter on Peter's actions and
looks ? When he says that Peter sniggered shrilly, does it really mean
that Peter was the only one taking a vicious pleasure in the scene,
the only one acting in a despicable way ? Or does it only mean that
the narrator particularly notices Peter because he despises him
particularly ?

Clare Durina wrote:
"Lupin was cowardly, James arrogant, Sirius vicious, but Wormtail was
wicked, psycophantic, even sociopathic."

Del replies :
You're going a bit too far IMO. If anything, Peter was the *least*
wicked of the 4. He only watched, he didn't encourage or prompt, and
he certainly didn't DO the teasing. He didn't stop J&S either,
granted, but then he was neither Remus (who as a Prefect had a duty to
stop the fight - and honestly, I doubt J&S would have listened to
Peter if he had tried to stop them), nor Lily (who is depicted as
particularly admirable, not average). Peter was just watching and
laughing, like several other students.

Clare Durina wrote:
"He enjoyed watching others in pain."

Del replies :
Snape wasn't in pain, he was "only" humiliated. And several other
students seemed to have no problem with this. As the narrator points
out, "Snape was clearly unpopular".

Clare Durina wrote:
" He wasn't strong enough to do it himself, but he was even more
pleased by Snape's humiliation than the others."

Del replies :
*More* pleased ? Where do you see that ? He seems just as pleased as
many other students.

Clare Durina wrote:
" JKR makes similar remarks about him in other places too."

Del replies :
Could you point out those remarks ? I'd be particularly interested in
knowing who says those remarks. Is it JKR herself in interviews, is it
the narrator, or is it one of the characters and if so which one ?

Clare Durina wrote:
"I'm not surprised he joined voldemort. After all, who could give more
fuel for his sadistic fire than he could?"

Del replies :
Sadistic fire ? I won't deny that Peter has a sadistic streak, but I
really don't see how we can conclude that it is any greater than in
any other kid.

Clare Durina wrote:
" Do not make harry's mistake and envision PP like another Neville.
Neville does not deserve to be picked on by snape or malfoy- he is
unpopular and less talented, but also kind and brave, selfless and
honest. Wormtail, although superfically like Neville, has none of his
good qualities. We always knew Neville has awesome potential, and it's
really starting to show."

Del replies :
I agree to the feeling.
But I must slightly disagree technically.
We know more about Neville because we've seen more of him. 
We also know that Peter betrayed Harry's parents, and this is bound to
taint our view of him younger.
We have also witnessed his pathetic defense at the end of PoA, and his
snivelling behaviour when around LV in GoF, and those weren't
depicting him in a good light either. But those events happened much
later in Peter's life.
Moreover most (all ?) people who talk about him don't have a good
opinion of him. Sirius never had any respect for him as far as we can
see. McGonagall speaks of him in ways that are strikingly similar to
those she would use to talk of Neville until GoF (my memory keeps
telling me that she actually said that Neville reminds her of Peter,
but as I don't have my PoA with me, I can't confirm that). But we know
that Neville has potential, no matter what other people think of him.
So we should be careful when judging Peter.

As for James and Sirius being bullies, well, this IS what Lily calls
James : "you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter". She was
admittedly a bit angry, but she did use the word.

Del