bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 118631


Carol earlier:
> > It's not clear from the description of the scene whether
> > James has his wand out already, but since Sirius has pointed 
> Severus out to him and James is the one who "greets" (insults) 
> Severus, I'm pretty sure that he does. Note the narrator's 
> description of Severus's reaction:
> > 
> > "Snape reacted *so fast* that it was as though he had been 
> expecting *an attack*; dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside 
> his robes, and his hand was halfway into the air when James shouted,
> > "Expelliarmus!" (646). So even taken off guard and unarmed, 
> Severus is quick, but James is prepared for the *attack* and is 
> almost certainly already armed. So we can't judge their relative 
> speed in a fair fight from this scene, 
> 
> Valky:
> The phrase "as though he had been expecting an attack" in no way 
> leads to an assumption that james was still armed. 
> Snape was 'expecting" an attack, from Harry's POV. This information 
> is gleaned by Harry, *strictly*, from Snapes reaction. If James' 
> wand was out before Snape moved then the POV of Harry would not be 
> that Snapes reaction was *as though* he had been < note the 
> curiosity of the narration > *expecting an attack*, surely. 
> The appropriate wording in the case of James' wand already being out 
> and aimed at Snape would be: Snape reacted quickly to the impending 
> attack. The attack was not obvious, James wand was not drawn or 
> aimed. Of that I am entirely certain. 
> 
Carol again:
"As though" refers to "expecting." It in no way implies that James's
wand wasn't out. You are, of course, free to be "entirely certain"
about whatever you like, even an ambiguously worded description like
this one.

> 
Carol earlier:
<snip> Not only has James attacked an unarmed opponent with inadequate
warning, it's now two against one. 
> > 
> > I don't think that Severus was normally weaker than James alone,
> > especially given his knowledge of hexes and his willingness to use
> > them. It's the circumstances and the behavior of the two 
> Gryffindors that make Severus a victim, and James and Sirius 
> Bullies, in this particular instance.
> > 
> 
> Valky:
> With this I agree. Sirius' actions and the duo's behaviour are 
> exactly why this is bullying, once James gets the better of Snape he 
> is free title to them.

Carol again:
I'm not sure what you mean by "he (who?) is free title to them," but
since you agree with my point, I won't pursue it.

Valky wrote:
> No personal intent Carol but I just don't understand why others feel 
> the necessity to construe the story to say that James attacked an 
> unarmed opponent without warning, it's overkill. The words simply 
> don't support it, and it doesn't change the fact that he behaved 
> like an Ar*e following it. 

Carol again:
Severus didn't have his wand out. He had to scramble in his bag for
it. And "All right, Snivellus!" was not sufficient warning *if* James
already had his wand out. He certainly doesn't wait to cast his
Expelliarmus until Severus has fully raised his wand. Severus has been
studying his notes; he reacts as quickly as possible considering that
his mind has been elsewhere; it seems like a conditioned reflex. But
it would also seem that James's wand was out or he could not have
attacked so quickly. And Sirius was also armed and entered into the
conflict without warning when Severus was definitely unarmed. 

I can't tell whom or what you're referring to in "behaved like an A*re
following it," but the behavior that follows in no way justifies an
attack on an opponent who's caught off-guard and has done nothing to
provoke the attack.

 
Carol earlier:
> > We really don't have James's view on this subject. He says that he
> > hexes Severus "because he exists." It's the adult Sirius who 
> credits James with a hatred of the Dark Arts. (I wonder if he's 
> projecting his own hatred of his Dark Wizard parents onto Snape and 
> assuming that James shares his hatred. As I've noted elsewhere, 
> James is quite casual, and even seems surprised that Lily would 
> criticize him for harmlessly amusing the onlookers--his apparent 
> attitude, not mine!)
> >
> 
> Valky:
> Overkill! Carol. James just simply isn't this bad, you just want him 
> to be, right?

> Sirius statement about James *Hating* the Dark Arts is adamant and 
> sincere, How can you doubt that? Of all the things that Sirius has 
> said?

Carol responds:
Please don't impute motives to me. I don't want James to be "bad." I
just think it's clear that he thinks highly of himself at this point
and wants to impress Lily (and everyone else) with his hex-throwing as
well as his Quidditch-throwing. I also don't think "because he exists"
is any kind of motive at all, at least in no way a justifiable one.
Neither is relieving Sirius's boredom by attacking someone Sirius
hates. (Now if James thinks Severus is the only person who can match
him in hex-hurling and is trying to create a spectacular showdown, I
could at least understand that motive. But we really don't know what
he thinks.)

I think *Sirius* hates Severus because he associates him (and
Slytherin in general) with the Dark Arts. But James didn't come from a
family of Dark Wizards (AFAWK) an his parents are still alive at that
point. He would have no personal motive for hating the Dark Arts or
Slytherin or anyone else, including Severus Snape, whom he admits has
done nothing to him at that point. James doesn't seem to be taking
much of anything seriously, except the Transfiguration that he learned
earlier to transfigure himself into an Animagus.

Things happen later--marriage, a child, his own and his family's
danger, perhaps the murder of his own parents and/or Lily's and
certainly the deaths of the Order members--to change James into a much
more heroic figure. But at this point, he's just (IMO) a thoughtless,
inconsiderate, egotistical, arrogant little berk. He isn't vengelful
like Sirius; he just doesn't think about anyone else except himself,
his best buddy Sirius, being admired, and having a good time. At least
as far as we can tell from this scene.

BTW, the whole point of my post was to argue that Severus would
probably have been a more formidable opponent in a fair fight. It has
nothing to do with wanting to think badly of James--who, is, like
Sirius and Severus and Remus and Peter, a fifteen-year-old boy in this
scene, and very definitely not the young man he would later become.

Carol, who thinks we should avoid imputing motives to each other
unless those motives are directly stated