bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[ginnysthe1]

No: HPFGUIDX 118645


catkind wrote:
The way I read this scene, James and Sirius weren't planning a fight,
they were planning a taunting session, a la Draco Malfoy/famille
Dursley. Then they are pleased when Snape draws his wand because it
gives them an excuse to use magic against him. Even more so when
Snape gets his slashing-hex in. My impression was, if Snape hadn't
gone for his wand, nor would James and Sirius have.

Yes, it can also be read the other way: "All right, Snivellus?" calls
James, to call Snape's attention to the wands pointing at him.
My opinion: whichever way it happened, it doesn't change the fact
that J&S are in the wrong.

I always want to compare this scene to the scene where Draco first
confronts Harry about Malfoy sr. being in prison, at the end of OotP:
Harry is taunting Malfoy, basically, even though Malfoy "started it".
Malfoy goes for his wand. Harry gets to his first. I wonder what
would have happened next if Snape hadn't intervened. Judging by
Harry's later actions, something pretty unpleasant would have happened
to Malfoy at this point.

The author seems to condemn James and Sirius' actions, but not to
notice anything wrong with what Harry does to Malfoy in the various
incidents in OotP. Is this something Harry hasn't noticed yet, or does
Rowling really see a difference, a valid excuse for doing nasty things
to Malfoy? Or is the Harry/Draco dynamic pure Tom-and-Jerry light
relief, outside the moral framework?

If "he started it" is a valid excuse, James and Sirius would have a
valid excuse at least in my first reading.
If "he's a nasty piece of work" is a valid excuse, you could say James
and Sirius would have a valid excuse full stop.
If "two against one" is what makes it wrong, what about Harry and
twin/DA vs Draco/Draco and goons?

I'd be interested in what people think about the relative seriousness
of the offences "he insulted my parent/best mate/greasy nose", "he
hexed me" and "he punched me" in this world. Otherwise it's hard to
judge what is considered just retaliation for what and by whom.

Kim responds now:
Hi, catkind (kind to cats?  like a cat?).  I just made another post 
discussing possible motivations for James and Sirius bullying Severus 
in the pensieve scene.  See what you think (though I don't have the 
post no. handy, it was real close to this one).  

As to Harry vs. Draco, I do think there's a similarity to Harry's 
father James vs. Severus Snape.  But I don't think it's quite the 
same situation.  I think Harry dislikes Draco for various justifiable 
reasons, not the least of which is Draco's obvious snobbery towards 
Harry's mate Ron.  It also may have been obvious to Harry at the 
outset that Draco's offer of "friendship" was hypocritical or 
insincere (and it probably was -- after all Harry isn't a pureblood) 
and that maybe Draco only wants to befriend him because he's the "boy 
who lived."  In any case Harry rejects Draco's offer.  And so 
the "history" between these two began at the beginning of the books.  
Ever after that they could *both* claim that universal childhood 
excuse of "He started it."  And that's supposedly where the adults 
are supposed to step in and teach the kids how to behave civilly to 
one another, in spite of possibly justifiable mutual dislikes.  But 
it (adult intervention) doesn't happen very often in any of the books 
from what I can recall.  Draco tends to be a taunter, a provocateur, 
whereas Harry is a reactor.  But when Harry (and Ron, Hermione, et 
al.) react to Draco's hateful taunts, they tend to get in trouble 
with the teachers, but Draco doesn't (not usually anyway).  Maybe the 
school still abides by that old saying "Sticks and stones may break 
my bones, but words can never hurt me," a saying which IMO has never 
been quite true.  Words can hurt a lot, as we all know -- they can 
hurt to the point that someone (especially and understandably when 
that someone is not yet an adult, e.g. Harry, Ron, Hermione, or even 
Draco) can feel no recourse but to haul off and pound the hurler of 
the cruel words (or have his goons pound the hurler for him).

Anyway, please chime in if you agree, disagree, etc.

Kim