bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 118738


Carol earlier:
> >The statement that James always hated the Dark Arts comes from
Sirius,twenty years after the Pensieve incident. As I've said  before,
he may be *orojecting* his own feelings, or James's *later*  feelings,
onto James at this time. We don't hear James himself speaking on the
subject.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think Nora made a marvelous argument on why "it does not have to 
> be personal for James in order for him to hate Dark Arts".

Carol responds:
I read Nora's argument and understand her perspective, but even if
she's right that the Dark Arts, the pureblood ideology, and Voldemort
go together, there's no evidence that *James* was thinking in those
terms at this time, or that he assoiciated Severus and Slytherin with
the mindset that Nora calls "fascist."
> 
> 
Carol earlier:
>  He [James] doesn't strike me as a guerilla in the war against
Voldemort or any kind of hero at this point. It took, IMO, something
drastic--perhaps the murder of his parents by DEs--to transform
Pensieve James into the James of Godric's Hollow.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> We differ on this one.

Carol responds:
Any particular reason why? Surely this is not the same James we hear
calling to Lily that he'll hold off Voldemort while she takes Harry
and runs? The James who died trying to fight for his family is
admirable and courageous. The James who bullied Severus for the
entertainment of his bored friend is arrogant and egotistical. James
did a lot of growing up, IMO, in the years between the Pensieve
incident and Godric's Hollow.
> 
> 
Carol earlier:
>  
> > It appears that you're taking Sirius's statement about James's 
> hatred of the Dark Arts at face value. I think that Sirius is not a 
> reliable source of information on the subject. He's too close to 
> James, after twelve years in Azkaban brooding on his wrongs and only 
> two years to partially recover in the horrible Black mansion, to be 
> an objective witness. IMO, we need confirmation from a more reliable 
> source in order to regard that statement as a canonical description 
> of James's views when he was fifteen.
> 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I do. I said that earlier - we DON'T KNOW how objective witness 
> ANY of the characters is at this point, except Voldemort,w ho had 
> been caught lying and Dumbledore, who we KNOW from JKR withholds 
> information.
> 
> IF I will doubt ANY character's testimony, I will not be able to 
> support ANY of my arguments with canon's testimony.
> 
> Untill Sirius is PROVEN to be a liar, I will take his testimony 
> seriously, I see no reason not to.
> 
> I even take his testimony about Snape to be true, but I understand 
> why others may not want to, but not to take his words about James as 
> truthful? I see absolutely no reason why.

Carol responds:
For the record, I wasn't calling Sirius a liar. We all interpret
events and other people's motives from our own perspective and see the
past through the filter of the present. So I think Sirius is dating
James's opposition to the Dark Arts to an earlier period than is
likely, in part because James was later a strong opponent of Voldemort
and in part because Sirius himself hated the Dark Arts from an early
age because of his family. I think he believes that his feelings and
James's feelings were more similar than they really were. I also think
that Sirius *hated* Severus, whereas James's feelings toward him were
more impersonal. I don't think he even really saw him as a person,
much less the symbol of an ideology that James opposed. There is just
no evidence that James cares about anything beyond popularity,
Quidditch, having a good time, and Lily. He's a typical "jock," as we
would call him in the U.S., an athlete who happens to be popular. He's
also smart, but takes care not to be seen with his nose in a book.

And there's no indication that anything terrible has yet happened in
his young life to stir him up and start him thinking about serious
issues like VW1. Hogwarts is a haven, and the students there live a
sheltered life without even knowing it--as James will learn later when
he starts losing friends and family and the Order members are picked
off one by one.

Carol, who really, really wants this to be her last post on this thread