bullies? twins, padfoot and prongs

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 118741


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> Carol:
> I read Nora's argument and understand her perspective, but even if
> she's right that the Dark Arts, the pureblood ideology, and 
> Voldemort go together, there's no evidence that *James* was 
> thinking in those terms at this time, or that he assoiciated 
> Severus and Slytherin with the mindset that Nora calls "fascist."

He does freak out when Snape uses 'Mudblood', though.  The bullying 
started before then, but that seems to be what really keeps it going 
and even ups the ante.  The essence of the ideology argument with 
kids is that it's there and influencing their actions, even if it's 
not something that they are openly thinking in terms of.

Think about Draco Malfoy.  He's the product of his environment, and 
indeed, his major narrative function (as he is a hopelessly 
incompetent rival figure, at present) is to let us see how someone 
raised in a DE household thinks and acts.  I doubt he's thought 
through his ideology all the way, thinking deeply in their terms, but 
he's clearly acting in accordance with its dictates.  Mudbloods are 
bad, purebloods are good, those people are inferior and worthy only 
of scorn, etc.

> Carol:
> Any particular reason why? Surely this is not the same James we hear
> calling to Lily that he'll hold off Voldemort while she takes Harry
> and runs? The James who died trying to fight for his family is
> admirable and courageous. The James who bullied Severus for the
> entertainment of his bored friend is arrogant and egotistical. James
> did a lot of growing up, IMO, in the years between the Pensieve
> incident and Godric's Hollow.

That's a fairly strict dichotomy to be observing, painting James 
solely in one set of terms in the past and then marveling "Where did 
those other things come from?"  Given JKR's fairly essentialist 
metaphysics, I think that the seeds of the latter, and probably at 
least some expression thereof, was always there.  We need to remember 
all of the fond comments made by people about James Potter at school, 
and try to figure out exactly how they connect with the obvious 
negatives.  To fail to do so is to commit deliberately one-sided 
analysis.  People develop, as well, without the need for sudden 
traumatic events.  The Big BANG is only one paradigm amongst many, 
after all.

> Carol:
> And there's no indication that anything terrible has yet happened in
> his young life to stir him up and start him thinking about serious
> issues like VW1. Hogwarts is a haven, and the students there live a
> sheltered life without even knowing it--as James will learn later 
> when he starts losing friends and family and the Order members are 
> picked off one by one.

Hogwarts may well be something of a haven, but it's certainly not a 
complete haven from the ideas filtering in as well.  It's surely not 
a coincidence that *all* of the infamous 'Gang of Slytherins', Snape 
included, went and became DEs?  Kids, especially upper-years, are 
generally fairly aware of the circulating currents in society, even 
if they don't know what to do about it.  It seems that Voldemort's 
ideas were an issue while that generation was at school, and that 
these ideas mattered--witness the reaction to the use of 'Mudblood', 
just as strong then as it was in a present instance.

Again, there is nothing to support the necessity of a BANG-y 
occurrence in James' life, although it may well turn out to be as 
such.  But even BANGs typically serve to accentuate things that were 
already there.  I'm willing to bet money that James was brought up in 
a particular way, and had certain ideas drilled into his head from a 
young age.  There are good reasons to assume things like that rather 
than simply asserting that Sirius is projecting all of his ideology 
over onto James post facto.  Interesting that Dumbledore compares 
James and Snape to Harry and Draco, in the first book--that's an 
ideological clash as well as a personal one, although neither of them 
is exactly debating politics and philosophy in the halls, either.

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