[HPforGrownups] Hermione's Time Turner

[Vivamus]

No: HPFGUIDX 118827

-----Original Message-----
From: martyb1130 at aol.com [mailto:martyb1130 at aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:03 PM
To: hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Time Turner



Hello, is anybody else interested in what else this time turner in PoA can
reveal or help? Why didn't Prof. McGonagall use this when she found out that
the Potters were murdered? How much of the past does this time turner go in?

It is very curious that it comes up in book 3 when it could be so useful.

Brodeur


Vivamus:
I'm very interested in it.  The events of PoA seem to indicate a static
history view of time travel (as opposed to a multi-threaded universe view,)
but I don't think we have seen that confirmed for certain.  That would imply
that only events which are uncertain can be changed.  McG, therefore, could
not possibly have gone back to affect the past once it was known the Potters
were dead.  The only reason Harry and Hermione could go back and do what
they did was that they had already done it.  (I know, that is a paradox, but
remember Harry and Hermione both actually saw or interacted with their
future selves in their *first* foray through the loop.)

I find it an interestingly deterministic approach, given JKR's emphasis on
free will, and I'm fascinated to see what she will do with it.  I'm inclined
to think that choices can only affect the future in the Potterverse, but H/H
certainly made many significant choices while they were looped.  OTOH, if
choices can be made in the past, what about choices made differently on the
loopback from the first time?   If it can't result in multithreaded
universe(s), there must be a deterministic lock of some kind that prevents
things being anything other than what they are.   

The simplest explanation would be that of the foreknowledge interpretation
of predestination: one is predestined from the beginning to go where one's
free will and free choices will ultimately take one, because there is
foreknowledge of one's choices.  So, one is destined from the beginning of
time to end up where one actually chooses to be at the last moment, and all
of one's existence is truly aimed at whichever destination one ultimately
chooses (I'm trying to avoid theological hot-buttons here, so please excuse
if this is somewhat vague.)

In time travel terms, the loopback would contain free choices that *do*
affect the first travel through the loop, but as one goes through the first
loop, one is predestined BY ONE'S OWN FUTURE CHOICE to have already looped
back and affected the current situation.   Therefore, you have complete
freedom of will, but the time-looped universe is already shaped according to
the future exercise of your will.  

It makes a nice, neat package of it.  The one thing it seems to overlook is
when you directly interact with your future self, but JKR talked about that
as well, when Hermione warned that "lots" of wizards have killed their past
OR future selves.   I'm not sure how you could kill your past self in a
loopback without either disappearing forever once you did so -- in which
case, what killed you? -- or create a divergent reality (and we are back to
the multi-threaded universe, which I think PoA just doesn't allow.)  It
still has some paradox to it, but it is better than any other explanation I
can think up.  Dumbledore guessed that there was more than one Harry and
Hermione running around, and he knew that Buckbeak had escaped.  He was also
smart enough to give them *just* enough information necessary to get the job
done, and *nothing* more to influence them.

I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the end of time travel, though.   Remember
the Quidditch World Cup?   Fred and George bet everything they had on a
hundred to one shot, with complete confidence, and no indication of surprise
that they had won.  Somehow, they *knew.*

One thing I'm wondering is whether there is such a thing as time peeking;
i.e., seeing a short-term future far enough in advance as to be useful.
Given all we've seen about Divination, it seems unlikely.  Prophecy seems to
be out of the control of the seer, so that it wouldn't suit their purposes.

But what if they learned how to send a message back in time a short ways?
Just far enough to know, before the match, the outcome.  What if they
figured out how to do this, and part of the magic had to do with an
"anchor", kind of like a portkey, that must be charmed at the near end of
the loop?  They could have charmed the anchor and had all the other parts
ready to complete it as soon as the match was over.   

They must have done it by some other means than themselves, though, or they
would also have known that Bagman would stiff them.  No, wait, he DID pay
them, but it was in wizard gold, so they didn't know until later.

Anyway, I suspect that time travel is too messy a plot device to use very
much, but I'd be willing to bet it will show up again, in a minor way, at
least.

Vivamus, whose cat Snickersqueak is truly timeless